Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Ah! Now I see the doubling problem that everybody else has been talking about. Took me a while. Yup, I'm a fast one.

My next question is hopefully simple. I assigned a PEL of ¼ to the 1st level characters in my last example. Is that supposed to be possible?

Personally I would always keep EL in terms of positive and negative numbers rather than fractions.

 

[Zaknafein]

I was curious...

I know you redid the MM1 & MM2 with your revised CR system U_K but can you possibly leave an attachment with your great work?

It would tremendously help the rest of us that are tring to do that... saves alot of the leg work... and I know it is long... but we dont have to print it out... just viewing it will be a great priviledge, atleast for me....

thanks in advance U_K

-in honor zaknafein

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Given time, resources, and modern technology, I imagine a Prismatic Dragon could developa fusion reactor that powers the entire planet in under a week. The dragon could also probably write an Excel spreadsheet that is beyond your comprehension.

You certainly do underestimate the Int 64 the thing has.

Prove it

Personally, I consider invention and genius to be different to intelligence. Otherwise, those prismatic dragons would already[/] have invented fusion reactors.

[Edited to add, just in case it wasn't obvious - it was a joke!]
Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hiya mate!
Maybe there could be a caveat that no monster can have a CR greater than double its Hit Dice, but I hate being so arbitrary.

Sometging like that sounds the way to go, bu I understand your concern.

One thing I did notice from the Fiend Folio was that changes to the Outsider type, it is reduced to +0.65/HD (rather than +0.7/HD)

I haven't seen the FF. Can you share what those changes are?
Based on Savage Species, it looks like outsiders and dragons will be getting a lot fewer skill points in 3.5E, unless those rules are modified.

Devastating Critical is one hell of a feat it must be said. Monk Vorpal feat is broken though.

I agree. With Devastating Critical, I've changed it so if the save is failed, the creature isn't killed: it takes an extra 1d6 damage per level of the attacker (on top of normal critical damage). I do Vorpal attacks the same way, but no save is required (and I'm wondering if one should be).
By the way, you put some changes to to epic feats. Have you thoght about altering Overwhelming Critical? (Or, as it should be known, Underwhelming Critical)

Darren

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: I was curious...

Hi Zaknafein mate!

I know you redid the MM1 & MM2 with your revised CR system

Well, I didn't redo the whole of MM2, just some of the more powerful creatures. Also there is no likelihood of MM2 entering the SRD anytime soon so don't expect me to detail any of those.

U_K but can you possibly leave an attachment with your great work?

Well, remember that I revised all the MM CRs under the auspices of a previous version. Meaning I would more or less have to check every entry again, something I am not in any immediate hurry to do.

It would tremendously help the rest of us that are tring to do that... saves alot of the leg work... and I know it is long... but we dont have to print it out... just viewing it will be a great priviledge, at least for me....

I'll see what I can do over the next week.

The problem is that I don't want to have to revise all the CRs (again) unless I am positive we have the CR factors 100% perfect this time, and as you can tell by this thread discussion is still ongoing on one or two issues.

thanks in advance U_K

Wait until I get it done, then thank me.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hiya mate!

Sometging like that sounds the way to go, bu I understand your concern.

Exactly, then people simply unload the special abilities onto monsters they are creating and they don't have to pay for them past a certain point. The idea is inherantly broken. I must have been nuts even mentioning it.

I haven't seen the FF. Can you share what those changes are?
Based on Savage Species, it looks like outsiders and dragons will be getting a lot fewer skill points in 3.5E, unless those rules are modified.

I haven't checked all the monster types but Outsiders now get:

(2 x Int mod) x (HD +3)

Dragons are the same (as 3.0), if not fractionally better.

I agree. With Devastating Critical, I've changed it so if the save is failed, the creature isn't killed: it takes an extra 1d6 damage per level of the attacker (on top of normal critical damage).

Doesn't that actually completely destroy the feat though!?

I do Vorpal attacks the same way, but no save is required (and I'm wondering if one should be).

So you use the vorpal feat but it doesn't actually decapitate!?

Wouldn't you just be better ignoring both feats and removing them from your list?

By the way, you put some changes to to epic feats. Have you thoght about altering Overwhelming Critical? (Or, as it should be known, Underwhelming Critical)

I mention in the revised (epic) feats section all the changes I would make.

One thing I should have added was that you should remove the Vorpal feat from the list and make it a deific ability (SDA). Its much too powerful.

Regarding Overwhelming Critical I have done the math and increasing the actual critical multiplier is too powerful...for a feat anyway.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hiya mate!
Exactly, then people simply unload the special abilities onto monsters they are creating and they don't have to pay for them past a certain point. The idea is inherantly broken. I must have been nuts even mentioning it.

I haven't checked all the monster types but Outsiders now get:

(2 x Int mod) x (HD +3)

Dragons are the same (as 3.0), if not fractionally better.

In Savage Species, Dragons and and Fey get
(6 x Int mod) x (HD +3)
and everyone else gets the total you quote. Looks like that'll be the new rule.

Doesn't that actually completely destroy the feat though!?

Hardly. He does around 30 points on a normal hit, 70 on a critical, and 150 on a critical where the creature fails its FORT. It's not a negligible increase, an for many creatures it does lead to an instant kill (especially if he has hit it once or twice before - which isn't uncommon: after all, not every hit is a critical).

I use a modified version of the rule on WoC website for save or die spells too - they typically do around 300 points, rather than an outright kill, on a failed save.

(I should also point out, that these don't alter the Pit Fien example, since at their hit points, these totals have the same effect: instant kill)

So you use the vorpal feat but it doesn't actually decapitate!?

Yes - it's a vicious, slashing blow to the neck - if it does enough hit points, it decapitated, but if not, it's a vicious blow that almost decapitated.
I treat vorpal blades the same.

Wouldn't you just be better ignoring both feats and removing them from your list?

I think these changes are worthwhile - the players thought so. Any increase in damage is still an increase in damage, after all - and doubling the damage of a critical hit (tripling for the monk) is definitely worth it.

I mention in the revised (epic) feats section all the changes I would make.

One thing I should have added was that you should remove the Vorpal feat from the list and make it a deific ability (SDA). Its much too powerful.

Treating it similarly to the devastating critical works for me, and gives the monk smething to aim for to increase his damage. Though I could go with banning it if I started another game.

Regarding Overwhelming Critical I have done the math and increasing the actual critical multiplier is too powerful...for a feat anyway.

That's something I've avoided because it gets too difficult to balance the axes and swords (increasing a crit mult from 2 to 3 should be met with axes increasing from 3 to 5, and that's a bit extreme).
I was toyng with having overwhelming critical add a set amount of damage, like half BAB or level, but my game will not go above 30th level - in a game which allows higher levels I can see that not being attractive. But _anything_ is better than a puny +1d6 for an epic feat, that only applies when you get a critical!

Darren

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hi there mate!

In Savage Species, Dragons and and Fey get
(6 x Int mod) x (HD +3)
and everyone else gets the total you quote. Looks like that'll be the new rule.

Yep.

Hardly. He does around 30 points on a normal hit, 70 on a critical, and 150 on a critical where the creature fails its FORT. It's not a negligible increase, an for many creatures it does lead to an instant kill (especially if he has hit it once or twice before - which isn't uncommon: after all, not every hit is a critical).

I use a modified version of the rule on WoC website for save or die spells too - they typically do around 300 points, rather than an outright kill, on a failed save.

Seems to remove the 'spirit' of the idea though.

Yes - it's a vicious, slashing blow to the neck - if it does enough hit points, it decapitated, but if not, it's a vicious blow that almost decapitated.
I treat vorpal blades the same.

Seems overly revisive. I mean if you do enough damage to an opponent you can relate how its sliced in twain - at that point it doesn't really matter.

I think these changes are worthwhile - the players thought so. Any increase in damage is still an increase in damage, after all - and doubling the damage of a critical hit (tripling for the monk) is definitely worth it.

Yes but my point is it totally changes the nature of the ability so much so that retaining the name is pointless...

...but if your players are happy then by all means go for it.

Treating it similarly to the devastating critical works for me, and gives the monk smething to aim for to increase his damage. Though I could go with banning it if I started another game.

Perhaps you would critical for maximum damage or something like that.

That's something I've avoided because it gets too difficult to balance the axes and swords (increasing a crit mult from 2 to 3 should be met with axes increasing from 3 to 5, and that's a bit extreme).
I was toyng with having overwhelming critical add a set amount of damage, like half BAB or level, but my game will not go above 30th level - in a game which allows higher levels I can see that not being attractive. But _anything_ is better than a puny +1d6 for an epic feat, that only applies when you get a critical!

I have a deific ability called Obliterating Critical that doubles the critical multiplier. I have found that multiplying it is actually easier to balance than adding to it.

 

[Knight Otu]

Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

I haven't checked all the monster types but Outsiders now get:

(2 x Int mod) x (HD +3)

Dragons are the same (as 3.0), if not fractionally better.

WARNING! ERROR! (I'd like to add a bilnking style to that )

The Savage Species table is in error (the same applies to the Fiend Folio table as far as I heard).
Outsiders get (8 + Int) * (HD + 3) Skill points.
Undead get (4 + Int) * (HD + 3) Skill points.
Fey and Dragons get (6 + Int) * (HD + 3) Skill points.
The rest gets (2 + Int) * (HD + 3) Skill points.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hi there mate!

Hello!

Seems to remove the 'spirit' of the idea though.

Just a matter of perception. It's still a 'devastating critical'.

Seems overly revisive. I mean if you do enough damage to an opponent you can relate how its sliced in twain - at that point it doesn't really matter.

It can matter - it depends how you put them back together. You can't bring a decaptitated corpse back with raise dead.
So it can sometimes matter (though admittedly, not often at the kind of levels these abilities are encountered).

Yes but my point is it totally changes the nature of the ability so much so that retaining the name is pointless...

...but if your players are happy then by all means go for it.

Which is another way of saying, you're wrong but have fun

I have a deific ability called Obliterating Critical that doubles the critical multiplier. I have found that multiplying it is actually easier to balance than adding to it.

It's easier to implement; but to be pointlessly pedantic it's not properly balanced, though.
When taking critical damage into account, the average damage for both swords and axes is the same. Under your system, it isn't. Not quite. But if it works for you
(Joking aside, I think the divergence is not a big deal.)

Darren