Revised cleric (take two)

[Kerrick]

Are you looking for a changed class entirely?

Not so much "change it entirely as "make it more interesting". As the cleric stands now, it gets nothing besides turn/rebuke undead at L1 and... spells. Oh, and domains - also at L1. There's absolutely nothing to keep you from going to a PrC at the first opportunity. I'm not against PrCs, mind you - I love the concept - but a class with no class features is just plain crappy design.

Conceptually, though, I don't think that every single cleric should have turn/rebuke undead. A cleric of music, for example, has nothing to do with undead. Likewise, not all clerics do the same thing - some are missionaries, some serve as militant priests, some are healers, etc. The best way to model all that, IMO, is through the talent trees.

Just make do with the domains, change the domain abilities to alternate Turn Undead abilities and I think you would have something.

Yeah, I think I'll do that for starters. Giving them abilities that are more in line with their domains would make them more interesting, for sure.

Then allow a feat to allow more domains or something (would have to be mitigated somewhat by requirements or something).

There's one in the ELH - Extra Domain or something.

 

[Sadrik]

You may also consider making TU CHA + 1/2 level, rather than 3 + CHA. Perhaps give additional domains as you level up too, 1 + 1 per 5 levels. In this way you can spread out class features.

1st level class features: aura, turn or rebuke undead, 2 domains, spontaneous casting
class features after 1: -

One other thing about the cleric is their open spell list - it is very powerful. In my house rules I make them like sorcerers and spontaneously cast like them with a known spell list. Their known spells = their per day list and they automatically know their domains in addition to that. In my own rules I do not give them the healing spells automatically but I can see the wisdom in that. Most cleric players who have used the rule like the ability to cast all their spells on the fly and not have to memorize, it is a very nice advantage - limits and broadens.

 

[Ashtagon]

In case you hadn't noticed, D&D religion in general is very pseudo-Christian. The cleric was built based on a Christian priest - the turning concept is a dead giveaway.

Actually, the cleric was specifically created to be a counter to a vampire PC that one of the original Gygax/Arneson group of players was playing at the time. It's a common misconception that it was written to be a Christian archetype.

 

[nonsi256]

As the cleric stands now, it gets nothing besides turn/rebuke undead at L1 and... spells. Oh, and domains - also at L1. There's absolutely nothing to keep you from going to a PrC at the first opportunity.

The best example I know of to emphasize this claim is the "Radiant Servant of Pelor".
You get better turning, better healing and a bonus domain - and you lose nothing.
Sure, you "waste" 4 more skill points than you'd usually want to invest in Knowledge (religion) and a feat that every other cleric takes anyway, but that's just because every PrC has prereqs.


Btw, did you happen to take a peek at my classes?
There are tons of ideas in them for you to draw from.

 

[nonsi256]

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[Kerrick]

You may also consider making TU CHA + 1/2 level, rather than 3 + CHA.

Unless you're in an undead-heavy campaign, 3+Cha bonus is plenty, especially with the Extra Turning feat.

Perhaps give additional domains as you level up too, 1 + 1 per 5 levels. In this way you can spread out class features.

I originally had it as 1 domain at 1st level and the second at 10th, but without any other class features, it just looks odd.

One other thing about the cleric is their open spell list - it is very powerful.

Yeah... that was part of what prompted me to try the spheres system. Barring that, I decided to simply tone down some of their spells. I also changed it so that they spontaneously cast domain spells, not healing spells - it makes a lot more sense, IMO. Having a sorcerer-like spell list kind of makes sense, though; it conveys the flavor of a sphere system without all the kludgy mechanics.

Actually, the cleric was specifically created to be a counter to a vampire PC that one of the original Gygax/Arneson group of players was playing at the time. It's a common misconception that it was written to be a Christian archetype.

Why am I not surprised... A lot of the stuff that appeared in 1E was created to foil or screw over the players in some form. Still, you know Gygax got it from literature - Dracula (the book) popularized the "vampires recoil from the cross" thing, and it vastly predates D&D.

The best example I know of to emphasize this claim is the "Radiant Servant of Pelor".
You get better turning, better healing and a bonus domain - and you lose nothing.
Sure, you "waste" 4 more skill points than you'd usually want to invest in Knowledge (religion) and a feat that every other cleric takes anyway, but that's just because every PrC has prereqs.

God... you picked a good one there.

Btw, did you happen to take a peek at my classes?
There are tons of ideas in them for you to draw from.

The new ones? No. I'll check them out.

 

[Kerrick]

I looked over Nonsi's cleric, and it gave me some ideas. I think I'm going too narrow with the paths, so I decided to broaden my focus a bit. Here's my new idea:

There are three types of clerics: Friars (the "cloistered cleric"), priests (the basic cleric), and clerics (the "war priest"). All clerics have mid BAB and d6 HD for the sake of simplicity; friars have 1 weapon group and no armor, priests have 2 groups and light armor, and clerics have 2 groups and medium armor. All clerics get spontaneous spells, as the sorcerer (I'm really starting to like that idea), and their domains (I'll do some 1+Cha bonus/day granted powers for each); each also gets class abilities relating to its type. You can choose multiple paths (a war priest who retires to a quiet life in the monastery, e.g.); in that case, you simply acquire abilities from the new path as you gain levels - you don't lose the old abilities or gain any lower-level ones from the new path.

Obviously, very few people will want to play a friar, but that's fine - they're really intended for NPCs; I want to make sure priests and clerics are balanced against each other, though, so that players don't just go straight for the cleric and we end up with the same problem we've got now. The limited spells thing will help a bit, as will depowering some of their spells. I'll think up some stuff at work tomorrow, but I wanted to get opinions on this in the meantime.

 

[nonsi256]

There are three types of clerics: Friars (the "cloistered cleric"), priests (the basic cleric), and clerics (the "war priest"). All clerics have mid BAB and d6 HD for the sake of simplicity;

Actually, there's no real complexity in splitting BAB & HP.
Given the roles you're portraying, I'd do it like this:
- Friar: All Cloistered Cleric modifications - as given; poor Fort saves.
- Preist: low BAB; d8; 4 SkPts/level; light armor, light shield.
- Cleric: med BAB; d8; 2 SkPts/level; med armor, heavy shield; restricted to the following domains: Destruction, Glory, Strength and War.

I don't remember if it was you or not, but I saw a few days ago the idea of distinguishing between simple and martial weapons within a weapon group.
I think it can further help you to distinguish between them.
- Friar: 1 melee group; simple weapons
- Priest: 2 melee groups; simple weapons
- Cleric: 2 melee groups, 1 range group; martial weapons

I'll do some 1+Cha bonus/day granted powers for each

Given Cha represents potency, I'd use a different stat for quantity (Int/Wis)

You can choose multiple paths (a war priest who retires to a quiet life in the monastery, e.g.); in that case, you simply acquire abilities from the new path as you gain levels - you don't lose the old abilities or gain any lower-level ones from the new path.

I'd suggest choosing between 2 options:
1. Total conversion that requires so much amount of time.
2. Keeping the old abilities, but starting from the bottom as far as the new abilities go (and make sure they get better as levels go up).

Obviously, very few people will want to play a friar, but that's fine - they're really intended for NPCs

This depends entirely on how you execute them.
They could be made just as viable - and not everything is about one-on-one showdown, you know

The limited spells thing will help a bit, as will depowering some of their spells.

Kill Divine Might and Persistent Spell for starters.
Change their low-level energy blocking spells to appropriate energy resistance spells.

 

[Kerrick]

Actually, there's no real complexity in splitting BAB & HP.
Given the roles you're portraying, I'd do it like this:
- Friar: All Cloistered Cleric modifications - as given; poor Fort saves.
- Preist: low BAB; d8; 4 SkPts/level; light armor, light shield.
- Cleric: med BAB; d8; 2 SkPts/level; med armor, heavy shield; restricted to the following domains: Destruction, Glory, Strength and War.

That's three different classes.

I don't remember if it was you or not, but I saw a few days ago the idea of distinguishing between simple and martial weapons within a weapon group.

Yeah, that was my idea.

Given Cha represents potency, I'd use a different stat for quantity (Int/Wis)

1 + Wis bonus could work too.

I'd suggest choosing between 2 options:
1. Total conversion that requires so much amount of time.
2. Keeping the old abilities, but starting from the bottom as far as the new abilities go (and make sure they get better as levels go up).

I'd go with #2. I'm not sure why I did it the other way, other than it was late and I was writing stream-of-consciousness.

This depends entirely on how you execute them.
They could be made just as viable - and not everything is about one-on-one showdown, you know

Oh, I know - I just don't want everyone to go for the cleric simply because it's "the best". I'm thinking that friars are well-versed in Knowledge and have divine protection of some sort (they're most pious, and thus give their god a lot of energy and receive the same in return); priests are the healers and spread the word of their church - they're the ones you find most often in city temples, but they can and do go out to do their god's work; clerics are adventuring priests.

Kill Divine Might and Persistent Spell for starters.

Divine might will become a paladin-only spell. I added serious prereqs to Persistent Spell and some of the other higher-level metamagic feats (especially the stuff from the ELH) to balance them out - this one's got Spellcraft 18 ranks and Extend Spell.

Change their low-level energy blocking spells to appropriate energy resistance spells.

Huh?

 

[Sadrik]

Friar - again with the pseudo-christian titles...

Suggestion-
Make one class called cleric. Give it some base assumptions. good will save and low ref and fort, low BAB and d6 HD - basically begin at the lowest point in everything. Then, you make a selection of three choices: mystic (caster cleric), avenger (war cleric), or devoted (middle of the road cleric) depending on the choice you make it gives you the number of domains (1 2 or 3), weapon selection choices and gives you an increase in BAB, saves and HD.

Another way to develop this would be to make greater and lesser domains. The greater domain grants you potential increases in base stats: for instance war domain might increase you to mid BAB and higher HD. Either pick some of the domains out of the group and make them greater domains or invent an entire new list of greater domains or a mix of both. These greater domains would capture the main basal motive of the worshipers of a deity. Perhaps of a list of 5 or less greater domains would be all that was needed. Characters would only ever get 1 greater domain and then they could select lesser domains based on their choice of deity and greater domain. I think I like this idea the best. It features a level of customization that appeals to me.

More as an aside, make the unique spells on the paladin spell list into a righteousness domain and give paladins access to it in addition to the cleric spell list. I really dislike the ranger and paladin having their own spell lists... If you make clerics spontaneous casters, the druid, ranger and paladin should follow suit.

Also you could pair down the cleric list a bit by making some of the spells into domains and then feel free to give more access to those domains. The one that screams to me is a summoning domain (monster summoning I-IX).