Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Sonofapreacherman]

Howdy Upper_Krust.

Way back when you wouldn't shut up about Twink, your twinked out amusing wizard...

That would be my tweaked out 1st level generalist with a *25 point buy* spread? Yeah, he was completely out of control!

You play goblins dumb? You give really high point buys, or roll 4d6 and allow rerolls? You give extraordinary amounts of cash to your PCs?

I play goblins as little more than a nuisance in small numbers (I.E four of them), and as a force to reckoned with when their numbers swell (I.E. much greater than four of them). I play goblins with a poor grasp of strategy and as being cowardly by nature. Oh look at that! I play goblins exactly as they are described in the good book.

As for my PCs, they use the organic method of rolling their abilities; 4d6 six times (kept in order), reroll any one roll (taking the better of the two rolls), switch any two ability scores. Characters usually end up with one ability score they don't like, but usually enjoy role-playing that ability in the long run (my experience). Standard cash rolled randomly.

Give me an example of what you would consider a good fight involving 4 goblins and a group of 4 PCs.

Sure. Four goblins against a group of four PCs. Done.



They'll be lucky if they break a sweat.

Ah, I missed the ball... I see.. You meant that 20th level PCs are fodder for godlike dragons... Ok... Did you have a point somewhere there?

Nope, that was it. Don't make such a big deal out of such small points in the future and these debates will speed along like nobody's business.

Hence my argument that 1st level characters are a single round of attacks away from death, from equal and lesser CR opponents...

And this gets back to my central point about shrinking the CR to EL conversion for lower level encounters. I'm not going to repeat it again if you haven't figured it out yet. Sorry.

If I get what you mean here, and I'll admit, I'm not that interested in deciphering it, then UK's system already has globally increasing CR to EL ratios, which is what your "decreasing increments of CR to EL".... as you go down the levels, and increasing as you go up. Or are you not using the "middle" levels as your base of comparisons?

Excellent! Then despite your best efforts, you actually do understand. Not middle levels. Lower levels.

What do you propose then? I think you want is for low level characters to get less exp for fighting more challenging fights.

I want lower level characters to receive proportionate XP. That's all. Currently they do not, but with the solution Upper_Krust is weaving, that could very well change.

Gimme a break. Why would I respond to the whole post when I could give a crap about anything other than your argument that high level characters are as fragile as low level ones, and that you think that 4 goblins is a cakewalk for 1st level parties?

This is further proof that you missed the central point and made mountains out of molehills (like the prismatic dragon versus 20th level party). Why would I give you a break?

Even if it means letting ignorance fester.

Well I did suggest you should keep your head in the clouds, so that wouldn't be surprising.

Indeed. Next time say, "Let's calculate ELs based on fractional CR at low levels." Instead of what you said, which was open to interpretation.

I'll reach my epiphanies at whatever pace suits my Paleolithic brain, thank you very much. If the gradual path my logic takes is not direct enough for you ... too freaking bad.

-----

Anubis.

...

Oh nothing.

I just realized that responding to your nonsensical knee-jerk reactions is pointless.

I will say this however...

I hope you have a nice day.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

The simple part becomes:

CR 4 = EL 9
CR 3.5 = EL 8
CR 3 = EL 7
CR 2.5 = EL 6
CR 2 = EL 5
CR 1.75 = EL 4
CR 1.5 = EL 3
CR 1.25 = EL 2
CR 1 = EL 1

At last! Yes, for those low level beasties, measuring to within an 'accuracy' of 1 CR point is just not accurate enough.



Looks good to me.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

I have some comments. First off, orcs, hobgoblins, and goblins are more or less equal in CR. Hobgoblins deal one more point of damage, and have one more HP, but goblins have one higher ranged attack bonus and are more stealthy. Orcs have one less HP than hobgobos, and one less AC, but they have a 2 higher to hit and deal 5 more points of damage per hit on average. So they should all be the same CR. I agree that 6-7 of any of these is a typical 1st level party. I'm inexperienced with Kobolds tho. Never liked them, always been and orc and goblin guy. I do know that if you go 2 on 1 Orcs to PC ratio, you will have a TPK. Orcs hit hard.

Eldorian Antar

I'll agree that goblins and hobgoblins are roughly equal, but orcs are the terrors of the 1 HD species. Their strength and use of Great Axes can wreak havoc among a level 1 group. And I would say kobolds definitely are weaker than the two types of gobbos.

Darren

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

Originally posted by Upper Krust:

16-23 Kobolds = Typical 1st-level Party
12-15 Goblins = Typical 1st-level Party
8-11 Orcs = Typical 1st-level Party
6-7 Hobgoblins = Typical 1st-level Party

Any of those following would RAPE a first level party, unless the party had some huge advange. Try to tone it down a little, but your getting there.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

I have some comments. First off, orcs, hobgoblins, and goblins are more or less equal in CR. Hobgoblins deal one more point of damage, and have one more HP, but goblins have one higher ranged attack bonus and are more stealthy. Orcs have one less HP than hobgobos, and one less AC, but they have a 2 higher to hit and deal 5 more points of damage per hit on average. So they should all be the same CR. I agree that 6-7 of any of these is a typical 1st level party. I'm inexperienced with Kobolds tho. Never liked them, always been and orc and goblin guy. I do know that if you go 2 on 1 Orcs to PC ratio, you will have a TPK.

12-15 Kobolds = Typical 1st-level Party
Kobold = CR 1/3

8-11 Goblins = Typical 1st-level Party
Goblin = CR 1/2

6-7 Orcs = Typical 1st-level Party
Orc = CR 3/4

6-7 Hobgoblins = Typical 1st-level Party
Hobgoblin = CR 3/4

Are we saying the above is more appropriate then...?

I haven't decided how we get to that mechanically yet of course.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

You do realize that this is absolute proof that those two were absolutely wrong and that the system is already correct as is, right?

Just look at them numbers . . . Sorry, but 16-23 kobolds would MURDER a Level 1 party EASILY.

Thats what I thought. Just wanted to see where we all stood.

Don't even get me started on orcs. A Level 1 party can barely take 1-4 of those things, much less 8-11. Let's not forget the fact that orcs are more powerful than hobgoblins, not less as these numbers profess, although they are all CR 0 in the end.

What did you think of my previous outline then?

Well, that takes care of that. Undeniable proof that the system works as-is and needs absolutely no change. I feel sorry for any players whose DM throws two dozen kobolds at them at Level 1. With that matter totally settled, shall we move on to something fresh?

Just hold your horses there.

I don't exactly see a Kobold equal to a 1st-level NPC. I mean I know they rate the same with regards CR (in one unit increments) but I like the idea of determining individual ELs at this measure of power for better accuracy.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

At last! Yes, for those low level beasties, measuring to within an 'accuracy' of 1 CR point is just not accurate enough.

Looks good to me.

Yes but as I mentioned thats the easy bit. Its the CRs below 1 we need comments on.

If my secondary notion is accurate then something akin to the following seems appropriate:

CR 0.66 = EL 0 = CR 3/4
CR 0.33 = EL -1 = CR 1/2
CR 0 = EL -2 = CR 1/3
etc.
CR -0.33 = EL -3 = CR 1/4
CR -0.66 = EL -4
CR -1 = EL -5 = CR 1/8
CR -1.33 = EL -6
CR -1.66 = EL -7 CR 1/16
CR -2 = EL -8
CR -2.33 = EL -9
CR -2.66 = EL -10

Alternately you could have:

CR 0.5 = EL 0 = CR 3/4
CR 0 = EL -1 = CR 1/2
CR -0.5 = EL -2 = CR 1/3
CR -1 = EL -3 = CR 1/4

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Hiya mate!



Yes but as I mentioned thats the easy bit. Its the CRs below 1 we need comments on.

Agreed - I didn't want to comment on them because I don't yet know what's appropriate. Much easier to let you figure something out then tell you what's wrong with it

Alternately you could have:

CR 0.5 = EL 0 = CR 3/4
CR 0 = EL -1 = CR 1/2
CR -0.5 = EL -2 = CR 1/3
CR -1 = EL -3 = CR 1/4

I don't know how individual monsters convert using this, but this approach looks better. However the translation between initial CR, EL, and final CR is confusing. It would be nice if you could do away with those final CR's altogether - they don't mesh with your EL system at all well.

Darren

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I don't know how individual monsters convert using this, but this approach looks better. However the translation between initial CR, EL, and final CR is confusing. It would be nice if you could do away with those final CR's altogether - they don't mesh with your EL system at all well.

Well its pretty simple.

Remember that increasing the number of opponents by 2 equals an increase in EL of 2.

Therefore EL -1 is always going to represent CR 1/2, because its two less than EL 1.

Similarly EL 0 will represent CR 2/3 (my previous 3/4 idea was incorrect).

Also:
EL -2 = CR 1/3
EL -3 = CR 1/4

...because:

EL +1 = x1.5 opponents
EL +2 = X2
EL +3 = x3
EL +4 = x4-5
etc.

 

[Eldorian]

I play goblins as little more than a nuisance in small numbers (I.E four of them), and as a force to reckoned with when their numbers swell (I.E. much greater than four of them). I play goblins with a poor grasp of strategy and as being cowardly by nature. Oh look at that! I play goblins exactly as they are described in the good book.

As for my PCs, they use the organic method of rolling their abilities; 4d6 six times (kept in order), reroll any one roll (taking the better of the two rolls), switch any two ability scores. Characters usually end up with one ability score they don't like, but usually enjoy role-playing that ability in the long run (my experience). Standard cash rolled randomly.

Ah ha! We have found your problem. When you play goblins, you automatically assume they will be "little more than a nuisance." Sure, goblins are cowardly and have a poor grasp of strategy, right out of the book, but also right out of the book, they use whave few advantages they have, numbers and malicious ingenuity. They fight dirty and with numbers, ie, gang up on one guy, coup de grace him when he goes down, repeat. Fight from ambush and use traps when they can. You are underestimating them, they have average intellegence and are noted for being maliciously ingenius.

This is further proof that you missed the central point and made mountains out of molehills (like the prismatic dragon versus 20th level party). Why would I give you a break?

No, I didn't "miss" your central point. I didn't care about it. I was attacking your misconceptions with which you might have used to build a central point, if there was one there. You had the misconception that high level characters are as fragile as low level ones, and that 4 goblins is a cakewalk encounter for a 1st level party. I repeat, get over yourself. Not everyone cares about your point, but when I hear someone say goblins are a wimpy fight, and that high level characters are as fragile as low level ones, I just have to comment.

Eldorian Antar