Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Anubis]

Here is a revised list of CR/EL ratings based on my calculations using UK's PDF (with some discretion of course).

[COLOR=white]
Monster                                                Rating       CR       EL

Animated Object, Living Statue                         2.6000        2.50     6
Bugbear                                                1.9500        1.75     4
Devil, Lemure                                          2.6500        2.50     6
Dire Bat                                               4.8000        4        9
Dire Rat                                               1.0000        1        1
Dire Wolf                                              5.2000        5       10
Dragon, Black, Young (3)                              13.6000       13       15
Dragon, Brown, Very Young (2)                         12.9500       12       15
Dragon, Deep, Very Young (2)                          12.1525       12       15
Dragon, Red, Wyrmling (1)                              9.6500        9       13
Elemental, Small Earth                                 3.9000        3.50     8
Elemental, Medium-Size Earth                           5.1000        5       10
Ghast                                                  4.7000        4        9
Ghoul                                                  3.2500        3        7
Giant, Hill                                            9.0000        9       13
Gnoll                                                  1.2000        1        1
Goblin                                         0.100*/ 0.6000        0 2/3    0 2/3
Hobgoblin                                      0.000*/ 0.6000        0 2/3    0 2/3
Homunculus                                             0.9000        0 2/3    0 2/3
Krenshar                                               1.9000        1.75     4
Mummy                                                  6.9000        6       11
Ogre                                                   4.2000        4        9
Orc                                            0.000*/ 0.6000        0 2/3    0 2/3
Skeleton, Tiny                                        -0.3250        0 1/3    0 1/3
Skeleton, Small                                        0.2500        0 1/2    0 1/2
Skeleton, Medium-Size                                  0.9000        0 2/3    0 2/3
Skeleton, Large                                        3.0000        3        7
Stirge                                                 1.3000        1.25     2
Troglodyte                                             2.1000        2        5
Wight                                                  6.1000        6       11
Zombie, Tiny                                          -2.0500        0 1/8    0 1/8
Zombie, Small                                         -1.2500        0 1/4    0 1/4
Zombie, Medium-Size                                   -0.3500        0 1/3    0 1/3
Zombie, Large                                          2.2500        2        5

Bear, Black                                            1.8000        1.75     4
Bear, Brown                                            5.2000        5       10
Snake, Tiny Viper                                      0.7250        0 2/3    0 2/3

Monstrous Centipede, Tiny                             -1.5750        0 1/6    0 1/6
Monstrous Centipede, Small                            -0.8000        0 1/4    0 1/4
Monstrous Centipede, Medium-Size                       0.0000        0        0 1/2
Monstrous Centipede, Large                             2.1000        2        5
Monstrous Scorpion, Tiny                              -0.7500        0 1/3    0 1/3
Monstrous Scorpion, Small                              0.3000        0 1/2    0 1/2
Monstrous Scorpion, Medium-Size                        1.0000        1        1
Monstrous Scorpion, Large                              3.7500        3.50     8
Monstrous Spider, Tiny                                -0.9500        0 1/4    0 1/4
Monstrous Spider, Small                               -0.2000        0 1/2    0 1/2
Monstrous Spider, Medium-Size                          0.5000        0 2/3    0 2/3
Monstrous Spider, Large                                3.0500        3        7



*By character class



Type                                                   Rating

Baatezu                                               +2.3000
Construct                                             -0.5000
Elemental                                             +1.7000
Fire                                                  +0.5000
Incorporeal                                           +1.2000
Ooze                                                  +1.6000
Tanar'ri                                              +2.3000
Undead, Intelligent                                   +1.0000
Undead, Mindless                                      -1.5000
Vermin                                                -1.5000



Size                                                   Rating

Fine                                                  +0.1500
Diminutive                                            -0.6000
Tiny                                                  -0.7500
Small                                                 -0.4000
Medium-Size                                           +0.0000
Large                                                 +1.5000
Huge                                                  +2.5000
Gargantuan                                            +4.4000
Colossal                                              +5.3000
Colossal+                                             +8.0000



Unrated Ability Scores                                 Rating

Strength                                              -2.0000
Dexterity                                             -2.0000
Constitution                                          +2.0000
Intelligence                                          -1.5000



Template                                               Rating       ECL/CR

Ghost                                                 +5.9000           +5
Lich                                                  +8.1000           +8
Monster of Legend                                     +9.0000           +9
Vampire                                               +8.1000           +8
[/COLOR]

For the creatures with two Ratings, the first number is the creature's racial modifier alone while the second is the actual rating of one such creature per the book (NOT counting racial abilities but only NPC class levels in these cases). These creatures are ECL 0 creatures that are classed in the MM.

 

[Knight Otu]

Looking at all that and the spell factors for epic spells I would go with 500. But it perhaps bears further investigation...?

Maybe... 200 looked pretty good, 500 might be easier to calculate...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks for the list Anubis mate!

Hey Knight Otu matey!

Maybe... 200 looked pretty good, 500 might be easier to calculate...

Its a tricky one, to be sure, but I think the Permanency XP modifier is the most solid peice of evidence we have.

 

[kreynolds]

Hey UK.

I used your system to break down the shadow in the MM, but I must have messed up. Here's what I got...

[color=white][font=arial][b]Hit Die: [/b]3 undead hit die		+1.8
[b]AC: [/b]+1 deflection			+0.15
[b]Speed: [/b]fly 40 ft. (good)		+0.6
[b]Ability Damage: [/b]1d6 Con (average 3)	+1.2
[b]Create Spawn: [/b]shadow, CR 7		+0.7
[b]Undead[/b]				+2
[b]Incorporeal[/b]			+2.2

[b]Total CR				8 (round down from 8.65)
Encounter Level			13[/b]
[/font][/color]

This can't be right, can it? Where did I go wrong? Thanks.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK.

I used your system to break down the shadow in the MM, but I must have messed up. Here's what I got...

Hit Die: 3 undead hit die +1.8
AC: +1 deflection +0.15
Speed: fly 40 ft. (good) +0.6
Ability Damage: 1d6 Con (average 3) +1.2
Create Spawn: shadow, CR 7 +0.7
Undead +2
Incorporeal +2.2

Total CR 8 (round down from 8.65)
Encounter Level 13

This can't be right, can it? Where did I go wrong? Thanks.

The problem is mainly in the Undead and Incorporeal types which have been reduced for V4. Also its Str damage is temporary. Finally it deals no actual damage (I have created a Damage factor for V4).

So it should look something like this:

Hit Die: 3 (INT) undead hit die +1.95
AC: +1 deflection +0.15
Speed: fly 40 ft. (good) +0.6
Ability Damage: 1d6 Con (average 3) +0.6
Create Spawn: shadow, CR 7 +0.5
(INT) Undead +1
Incorporeal +1.2
Damage -0.4

Total CR 5 (round down from 5.6)
Encounter Level 10

Hope that helps.

 

[kreynolds]

Total CR 5 (round down from 5.6)
Encounter Level 10

So the shadow would be a difficult encounter for a party with a PL of 6, right? Is that about a 50/50 encounter? Or would 50/50 be a very difficult encounter?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

So the shadow would be a difficult encounter for a party with a PL of 6, right? Is that about a 50/50 encounter? Or would 50/50 be a very difficult encounter?

Well; a party of four 2nd-level characters would be PEL 5 which would be (at EL +5) fractionally tougher than a difficult (50/50) encounter.

A party of four 3rd-level characters would be PEL 7 and therefore it would be an EL +3 encounter.

A party of four 4th-level characters would be PEL 9 and would find it an EL +1 encounter.

If you want to make a difficult (50/50) encounter of Shadows for a party of 5th-level characters then have one shadow per party member.

Of course having a Cleric in the party lowers the EL of Undead. Thats handled in the V4 Situational Modifiers section.

 

[kreynolds]

Cool. Thanks!

One more thing. Did you guys ever decide on whether or not to include a template's ability score modifiers as CR modifiers? What about for ECL? For example, if a template grants +2 to strength, would that add +0.2 to CR? What about ECL?

 

[Ashardalon]

Its a tricky one, to be sure, but I think the Permanency XP modifier is the most solid peice of evidence we have.

Good evidence indeed... I guess that settles it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Cool. Thanks!

One more thing. Did you guys ever decide on whether or not to include a template's ability score modifiers as CR modifiers? What about for ECL? For example, if a template grants +2 to strength, would that add +0.2 to CR? What about ECL?

Yes you include them.

I clarify queries like this in V4.