Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ashardalon mate!

Good evidence indeed... I guess that settles it.

True. Although its always possible that the Permanancy figure itself is wrong.

However, I don't have the inclination to dig too deep into this particular problem at this point.

 

[kreynolds]

Me again!

Yes you include them.

So an Ogre's strength score of 21 does what to it's CR? Does that have a modifier? Is it +1 CR (+0.1/increase, 21-11=base modifier of 10 x 0.1 = +1)? Or is it only for templates and ECLs?

I clarify queries like this in V4.

Which will be uploaded....when?

By the way, I'm asking so many questions because I'm customizing an MMII monster for my CotSQ game.

 

[Ashardalon]

However, I don't have the inclination to dig too deep into this particular problem at this point.

Understandable.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Me again!

Hiya mate!

So an Ogre's strength score of 21 does what to it's CR?

Nothing to its CR.

But remember we add a Size Modifier to CR. The Size Modifier factors in the ability score changes.

But that only accounts for the average ability score modifiers for that size. Where its ability score modifiers (for ECL) are different then you would add them (as well) to ECL.

So for CR:

The Ogre gains +1.5 for Size. +1 of this accounts for +10 to ability scores (+8 Str; +4 Con; -2 Dex).

For ECL:

The Ogre gains +1.5 for Size. However it gains +10 Str; +4 Con; -2 Dex; -4 Int; -4 Wis. Thats a difference of -6 on the typical size modifiers so the final mod would be -0.9. That takes account of both size and ability score modifiers.

Does that have a modifier? Is it +1 CR (+0.1/increase, 21-11=base modifier of 10 x 0.1 = +1)? Or is it only for templates and ECLs?

Which will be uploaded....when?

...when its finished.

By the way, I'm asking so many questions because I'm customizing an MMII monster for my CotSQ game.

Ask away, I don't mind. Glad to help mate.

 

[Anubis]

Nothing to its CR.

But remember we add a Size Modifier to CR. The Size Modifier factors in the ability score changes.

But that only accounts for the average ability score modifiers for that size. Where its ability score modifiers (for ECL) are different then you would add them (as well) to ECL.

So for CR:

The Ogre gains +1.5 for Size. +1 of this accounts for +10 to ability scores (+8 Str; +4 Con; -2 Dex).

For ECL:

The Ogre gains +1.5 for Size. However it gains +10 Str; +4 Con; -2 Dex; -4 Int; -4 Wis. Thats a difference of -6 on the typical size modifiers so the final mod would be -0.9. That takes account of both size and ability score modifiers.

Does that have a modifier? Is it +1 CR (+0.1/increase, 21-11=base modifier of 10 x 0.1 = +1)? Or is it only for templates and ECLs?

Dude, how many times do I have to tell you that's you're not only gonna confuse people by adding extras for ECL, you're also screwing PCs by double taxing their abilities. They already pay for those ability scores, so why should they pay again?

Better yet, look at facts. Now if we go realistic here, if you have two Level 3 ogre fighters with Level 7 PC wealth (CR 4 + Level 3, just for the sake of this example) face each other, one a PC and one a monster, equal equipment, that should be a 50/50 encounter. That fact can't be disputed. If they are equal, it is 50/50.

However, the CR for the monster would be 7 (7.8) with an EL of 12. Due to the added ECL modifier for total ability score bonuses +4 (Str +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -4), the PC is CR 8 (8.2) and EL 13. Why does this make any sense that a 50/50 encounter now is not rated as such? Ridiculous.

The same goes for any monsters with SLAs. What should be a 50/50 encounter no longer is.

You seem to think that ECL is independent of CR and EL, but it is not. By every source, ECL IS Level, and thus is counted with CR and EL all the same. You seriously need to just drop the ECL modifiers or list them ONLY as optional with cautions that using them could unbalance things.

I think you should add any ECL modifiers to CR as "optional" and have the STANDARD be CR=ECL in all cases. Anything else could cause confusion and unbalance things considerably.

 

[Anubis]

Here's what I get for the Shadow using the current PDF:

3 Intelligent Undead HD: +1.8 (3*0.6=1.8)
Fly (Good): +0.8
Fly Speed -20: -0.2
+1 Deflection: +0.15
1d6 (4) Strength Damage: +1.4 (0.6+0.2*4=1.4)
Create CR 6 Spawn: +0.6
Undead (Intelligent): +1
Incorporeal: +1.2
+2 Turn Resistance: +0.1

Total 6.85

CR 6/EL 11

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Dude, how many times do I have to tell you that's you're not only gonna confuse people by adding extras for ECL, you're also screwing PCs by double taxing their abilities. They already pay for those ability scores, so why should they pay again?

Better yet, look at facts. Now if we go realistic here, if you have two Level 3 ogre fighters with Level 7 PC wealth (CR 4 + Level 3, just for the sake of this example) face each other, one a PC and one a monster, equal equipment, that should be a 50/50 encounter. That fact can't be disputed. If they are equal, it is 50/50.

However, the CR for the monster would be 7 (7.8) with an EL of 12. Due to the added ECL modifier for total ability score bonuses +4 (Str +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -4), the PC is CR 8 (8.2) and EL 13. Why does this make any sense that a 50/50 encounter now is not rated as such? Ridiculous.

The same goes for any monsters with SLAs. What should be a 50/50 encounter no longer is.

You seem to think that ECL is independent of CR and EL, but it is not. By every source, ECL IS Level, and thus is counted with CR and EL all the same. You seriously need to just drop the ECL modifiers or list them ONLY as optional with cautions that using them could unbalance things.

I think you should add any ECL modifiers to CR as "optional" and have the STANDARD be CR=ECL in all cases. Anything else could cause confusion and unbalance things considerably.

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here - and not for the first time.

Adding any and all ECL modifiers to CR would mean factoring ability scores to CR.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Here's what I get for the Shadow using the current PDF:

3 Intelligent Undead HD: +1.8 (3*0.6=1.8)
Fly (Good): +0.8
Fly Speed -20: -0.2
+1 Deflection: +0.15
1d6 (4) Strength Damage: +1.4 (0.6+0.2*4=1.4)
Create CR 6 Spawn: +0.6
Undead (Intelligent): +1
Incorporeal: +1.2
+2 Turn Resistance: +0.1

Total 6.85

CR 6/EL 11

Yes I made a mistake with the Ability Scores Damage modifier and I also forgot the Turn Resistance mod. DOH!

The final figure should be CR 6 (from 6.5)/EL 11

Which makes it:

Party of four 3rd-levelers = Difficult (50/50) Encounter*
Party of four 4th-levelers = Tough Encounter*
Party of four 6th-levelers = Moderate Encounter*

*Remember the Situational Modifier for Undead will be less if the party have a cleric.

Thanks Anub!

 

[kreynolds]

Hiya mate!

As we like to say in Texas...Howdy!

So for CR:

The Ogre gains +1.5 for Size. +1 of this accounts for +10 to ability scores (+8 Str; +4 Con; -2 Dex).

Gotcha.

For ECL:

The Ogre gains +1.5 for Size. However it gains +10 Str; +4 Con; -2 Dex; -4 Int; -4 Wis. Thats a difference of -6 on the typical size modifiers so the final mod would be -0.9. That takes account of both size and ability score modifiers.

I don't think I'm understanding your terminology. What do you mean by...

Thats a difference of -6 on the typical size modifiers so the final mod would be -0.9.

Do you mean the difference between the above ability score modifiers (+10 Str; +4 Con; -2 Dex; -4 Int; -4 Wis/total 4) and the ability score modifiers derived from an increase in size (+8 Str; -2 Dex; +4 Con/total 10)?

If I'm understanding you, then I take the size modifier (for simplicity) and subtract the difference between the ECL modifiers for the size adjustment and stat modifiers, which would be 0.6? I think I got ya' on this now.

I do have one more question though. For ECL, the base ability scores are all 10's, and the modifiers are figured from there. Why? No PC ever has ability scores of all 10's. It's possible, sure, but I've never seen it, and I would find it hard to believe that a single DM out there wouldn't take pity on such a character and allow them to reroll.

With that said, why isn't the base considered higher? NPCs are not expected to have higher stats, but PCs most assuredly are. What's confusing me is this: At character creation, I roll my stats and get the following; Str 12, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13. Why is my ECL not immediately adjusted up by +1.0? If the base for ability scores is 10, then I exceed some of them. But, if I'm a 1-HD monster PC, and that includes a Strength modifier of +2, which gives me a total Strength score of 12 (from the base of 10), I get hit with a +0.2 ECL modifier? That doesn't seem very consistent, and it certainly doesn't feel very intuitive.

Basically, I'm wondering why the base for ability scores is figured up so low for ECL when it is such a rare case for a PC to even have stats at that base. Basically, there's an incongruity here, and it's a glaring one. Here's an example using the base of 10 for two different characters...

1st level human fighter created: Str 12, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbspNo ECL Modifier.
1st level arctic dwarf fighter (RoF; ability modifiers +4 Str; -2 Dex; +2 Con, -2 Cha/total +2) created: Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8)
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp+0.2 ECL Modifier.

See? Both are 1st level characters. The human has unbalanced ability scores over the base by +2 but no ECL modifier. The artic dwarf has unbalanced ability socres over the base by +2 and has an ECL modifier.

I think the base for ability scores needs to be redefined for PCs.

Does that have a modifier? Is it +1 CR (+0.1/increase, 21-11=base modifier of 10 x 0.1 = +1)? Or is it only for templates and ECLs?

I don't think it should have a modifier for anything, or at the very least, the base needs to be moved up from 10.

...when its finished.

Punk.

Ask away, I don't mind. Glad to help mate.

Thanks!

 

[kreynolds]

Adding any and all ECL modifiers to CR would mean factoring ability scores to CR.

I don't think that's what Anubis was suggesting. I think he was suggesting to drop the ECL modifiers for ability scores, just as they aren't counted with CR. I could be wrong though.