Revised DR

[Petrosian]

Petrosian: Well, as you say, YMMV. Maybe youll give it a chance if it proves to be more solid given the overall rule-set. At any rate, thank you for the discussion as it put me in perspective with the new DR. I think roughly half the time I was just playing devil's advocate anyway, but I will probably make my players go through the "perdition" of using all of the new rules, hey Im an evil guy I was hoping to at least convince you that it may be a sound rule, but Im not sure I succeeded.

The reason i remain unfazed is that at the core i do not buy into making magic less special than mundane. i do not have a problem with MAGIC weapons tromping all over "mundane" defenses... so i do not see a problem with werewolves silver immunity being supplanted by magic. I do think that AT SOME POINT the holy avenger should be a potent enough special nigh artifact that it kinda of beats the fact that its not made of silver.

To the argument that the PROBLEM is that too many magic weapons of too high a plus are available and so Dr as is never really applies at all... i say that is a perfect justification for reducing the availability of magic weapons of sufficient plus (by spell or item is irrelevent) AS WELL AS reviewing monsters dr to make sure they are relevent and appropriate forn their CR and predicted opponents.

To the argument that the PROBLEM is that the high level of current dr makes it too onerous to use, i say the idea of reviewing the current drs and lowering them where appropriate seems fine.

Neither of these problems REQUIRES designer-dr and its problems as solutions.

I do remain skeptical of making dr the mechanic for physical aspects. Unless they make further changes, DR is a supernatural ability. It does not work in certain environments, like antimagic fields. It seems silly to make arrows work well against skeletons in AMFs like designer-dr does (barring further imagined changes.)

 

[Ancalagon]

Oh, let me tell you how "fun" special DR rules are!

I've talked about our "main campain" in the past, and before I go on, I would like to say that I think our DM is great. The adventures are interesting and chalenging, cool NPCs, good descriptions, great roleplaying and all that.

That being said... he's extremely tight fisted as it comes to magical items. I'm a level 8 cleric. I have (besides a few scrolls I scribed myself and a few potions I found) a ring of protection +1 and a morningstar +1. Two of the PCs do not even have magical weapons.

To "compensate" the DM does damage reduction differently. He feels that the simple "if DR is +2/x and you have a weapon of +2 and above, you ignore DR" is too mechanistic and not flavorful enough. A weapon has to have a "special quality", or "alergen" to be able to fully overcome the DR. This isn't too much of a big problem for the PCs who have hight strenght and power attack, but it makes those who relie on weapon-finess types of characters (constant barage of small hits) almost powerless.

This means that my morningstar, the ranger-rogue's gost touch blade and the fighter-rogues enchanted battle axe are not especialy good at piercing damage reduction. Only the 2 handed sword wielded by the archer, a +1 hextor-temple crafted blade, has the "unholy" descriptor (not doing 2d6 against good creatures, just the origin of the magic coursing through it) that enables it to harm certain creatures.

One campain detail: It is a major theme of this campain that "outsiders" are trying to get in. The cosmology has a very classical heaven earth hell aspect to it. Thing is, "outsidders" (demons from the abbyss) are trying to break into the world. Both heaven and hell opposes them. This is why the hextor crafted blade hurts them.

Fast forward to the current adventure: An abandoned temple of Wee-Jass has a very powerfull demon imprisoned beneath it. Someone messed with the wards, and the church of wee-Jas has send a pilgrimage to re-strenghten the wards. The party (allong with wee-jas templars) is acting as gards for them. Lesser demons have been "seeping" through and are assaulting the convoy. (last fight: 10 ruttlekin, 4 baraluga (spelling?), and 10 rather dangerous "mounts" for the ruttlekin. I have no clue what the "skinless horses with beaks of doom" are, but the other 2 are in the book of vile darkness.)

The temple of wee-jas agreed to lend us one magical item each to help us fight these demons. Great news no? well...

The archer (fighter 8 ) got a periapt of wound closure, but he already has the hextor-blade so he is fine. His arrows are not working very well, only a critical hit allows him to do significant damage.

I (cedric, cleric of st-cuthbert level 8 ) get Maxim's order, a lawfull +1 club. I've used it with decent success... but turns out that it does NOT penetrate the chaotic demon's DR even though it is lawfull! Only the high damage (caused by the extra 2d6) is compensating for the 5 or 10 DR

The fighter/rogue (6/2) gets a necklace of fireballs. Demons are either resistant or imune to fire.

The ranger/rogue gets (2/6) Wee-Jass lock (as in lock of hair, not sure of the spelling). It is a flaming burst short sword +1... and yes, demons are resistant or imune to fire! Oh, and it doesn,t have the unholy descriptor, so it doesn't benetrate the demon's DR.

The wizard (level 8 transmuter evocation bared) gets a +1 demon bane dagger. He's polymorphing himself into an ogre and taking names, and the weapon is working like a charm. So one good weapon at least. However, all his damaging spells (burning hand, acid arrow and flame arrow) do nothing against the demons.

The bard/sorceror (4/4 with no sorcery) got 10 bolts of demon slaying. Those bolts are the ONLY thing he can do to harm the demons. Success rate is 1/4 until now. Add 2 misses, and he only have 4 left.

What to do? Well, the party wizard has the magic weapon spell, but it will not work. I do too, and I'm using it to even the odds. (it adds the "holy" descriptor, not causing extra 2d6 damage but it is overcoming the DR). Problem is, it only last a few minutes so I have to run around willy nilly (in plate armor) trying to get a few people powered up. with so many people to protect and so many demons, let's just say I don,t get the chance to help many party members.

So I thought "well, I will use the spell greater magic weapons on a bunch of arrows, and spread them around the party". First of all the spell only last a third of a day. The demons have yet to attack at a time when the arrows were enchanted. Second of all, the DM have decided that, for some reason, the arrows are "linked" so if the demons hit someone with dispell magic (and some of them have that power and are using it often) and that someone is carrying some of the magical arrows, ALL the arrows enchanted by the spell would become disenchanted (if the dispel is successful). And to put the cherry on the sunday, the DM decided that greater magic weapon on missiles would only grant +2 to damage and not to hit... gaaah!

In the meantime, 5 of the 6 templars are nothing but meatshields (3rd level fighters with good AC), and the clerics of wee-jas have to conserve their strenght for the ritual and only take limited actions in their own defence.

I am feeling very frustrated by the whole situation.

Ancalagon

 

[Shalewind]

Ancalagon:

I have already conceeded the point about custom DR, and I feel your pain in the scenario listed. It sounds to me like there is alot more going on in your scenario than a bad DR rule, just MHO.

For instance "extremely tight fisted as it comes to magical items" is a break from the normal game balance, and must be compensated for on the DM side (i.e. not fighting demons all the time).

The rest of the scenario sounds like it was custom crafted to make the majority of the parties resources, useless.

And this bit about the GMW 1) the arrows are "linked", and 2) only grant +2 to damage and not to hit is not Core rule and again in MHO a break in game balance that he is not compensation for.

Now, I'm not saying that the DR house rule isn't causing problems as well, but it does look like that there are too many other problem factors here for the argument to be made.

am feeling very frustrated by the whole situation.

I would be as well. It sounds like your DM isn't interested in keeping fun challenges or encounters and is more concerned with streching you to your limit and beating you up.

 

[Ancalagon]

Our DM believes in pushing us very far from times to times. I had to do half a dungeon with no spell because we had to stop an evil ceremony of doom (time limit scenario)

Luckily for us, we have a fate point system similar to warhammer frpg. If it wasn't for it, all but one character would be dead.

Yes, I agree there are other things going on here beside custom DR. But the custom DR thing is making it a real pain.

Other argument: what about creatures with natural attacks and DR? Are they sudenly unable to harm one another?

Ancalagon

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Yes, I agree there are other things going on here beside custom DR. But the custom DR thing is making it a real pain.

Other argument: what about creatures with natural attacks and DR? Are they sudenly unable to harm one another?

The new DR system (as best as we can tell) would work better for you. DR tops out at 15 and that is for exceptionally powerful beings. At your level you should not see anything worse than DR 5.

DR 5 is inconvenient, but is not so bad that anyone needs to drop their favorite weapon. You just need to Bull's Strength your best grunt. Those that are too weak to punch through the DR reliably can Aid Another.

 

[FireLance]

The reason i remain unfazed is that at the core i do not buy into making magic less special than mundane. i do not have a problem with MAGIC weapons tromping all over "mundane" defenses... so i do not see a problem with werewolves silver immunity being supplanted by magic. I do think that AT SOME POINT the holy avenger should be a potent enough special nigh artifact that it kinda of beats the fact that its not made of silver.

Petrosian, I think I see where you're getting at. Would the new DR rules make you feel more comfortable if the "magic" portion of a weapon's damage always gets through DR? For example, the damage of a Holy Avenger longword can be decomposed into 1d8 + Str modifier (weapon) + 5 (magic) + 2d6 (holy). Against a wererat, it would do at least 5 (magic) + 2d6 (holy) damage, but the wererat's DR would be effective against the 1d8 + Str modifier (weapon) damage.

Admittedly, this would not address your point about Holy Avengers being powerful enough to get through any special materials DR, but a Holy Avenger weilding paladin can still count on at least 5 (magic) + 2d6 (holy) points of damage per round.

 

[Petrosian]

No.

Why not?

This is a cosmetic feel good sort of illusory change.

By the time the magic plus and extra magic damage getting thru makes a difference, the character is already doing enough damage from weapon base and strength bonus (with enhanced from items) that this doesn't change the difference.

Say we are against DR10, the character's base weapon damage is about 5 and the strength bonus should be at the least in the neighborhood of 4 making 9.

The net effect of the proposal is to add 1 more point of damage, stopping only 9 not 10.

Thats no biggie.

you still have the same level degradation to those who do not try the golfie-bag approach with dial-a-weapon.

Petrosian, I think I see where you're getting at. Would the new DR rules make you feel more comfortable if the "magic" portion of a weapon's damage always gets through DR? For example, the damage of a Holy Avenger longword can be decomposed into 1d8 + Str modifier (weapon) + 5 (magic) + 2d6 (holy). Against a wererat, it would do at least 5 (magic) + 2d6 (holy) damage, but the wererat's DR would be effective against the 1d8 + Str modifier (weapon) damage.

Admittedly, this would not address your point about Holy Avengers being powerful enough to get through any special materials DR, but a Holy Avenger weilding paladin can still count on at least 5 (magic) + 2d6 (holy) points of damage per round.

 

[Lousifer]

Hey, just getting back into the whole 3e online gig. Where do you find these 3e revised rules?

Thanks

 

[Shalewind]

New books hit the shelves and the SRD in July. Morris has a compiled information thread on these, Here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/news...ns&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=37&page=1

 

[LokiDR]

Yes, I agree there are other things going on here beside custom DR. But the custom DR thing is making it a real pain.

Other argument: what about creatures with natural attacks and DR? Are they sudenly unable to harm one another?

Ancalagon

The quest of what DR creatures can hurt what is a very good question. One I hope WotC figures into the revised rules.

In muchkin games, I have never seen DR matter. In low power games, it can slaughter people. A mummy has DR 5/+1 and takes half damage from weapons before DR. If the party doesn't have magic weapons for one reason or another, they are down to torches. In other words, they are dead.

Lowering DR seems to be a good idea. I don't know about the designer DRs though. Maybe I should try this for my next game.