Revised DR

[IceBear]

Re: So...

...you wouldn't mind your +1 magical sword being useless against a Pit-Fiend, even though it's magical? Just curious...and yes, I'm aware it trashes the "special material" concept at lower DR values...

Holy crap man...if you read this thread you'd see where I stand. This is what this thread is about.

I said I liked the idea of the lowering of the DR, but I wasn't a fan of the special material (I could see a unique monster needing a special material from time to time), but I like magical weapons being magical.

My plan is to use the DR value from the revised MM and the old plus value from the old MM. Thus, my pit fiends would be DR 15/+2. Given the current DR rules, your +1 sword is even MORE useless against the pitfiends DR 25/+2. At least with 15 you might hurt it with a power attack or a critical.

I'm not arguing that I like the change, I'm just arguing with YOU, that given the evidence (WotC wants special materials to be special and feel that the DR will be low enough that you can bypass it even without the special material) your rumor doesn't seem likely. Understand now?

IceBear

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Ice Bear...

...you don't have to repeat yourself twice or more to make me understand why you think that "rumor" I brought along is not in the line of the new DR system. Probably should take it and wait until it fits in the "House Rules" section anyway.

Don't mind discussing with you, though...but I guess the thread's not for that either

 

[IceBear]

Re: Ice Bear...

...you don't have to repeat yourself twice or more to make me understand why you think that "rumor" I brought along is not in the line of the new DR system. Probably should take it and wait until it fits in the "House Rules" section anyway.

Don't mind discussing with you, though...but I guess the thread's not for that either

I'm sorry, but I really didn't think you were getting it as after I said it the first time you said you disagreed

I think your "rumor" would be a fine house rule with the existing DR levels. Just don't think it would work well for stuff like /blunt or with the new DR levels.

BTW - I will concede the point that your rumor may be true, it's just that if it is, and given Andy's points, it seems really dumb for WotC to do that

IceBear

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Re: Re: Ice Bear...

I'm sorry, but I really didn't think you were getting it as after I said it the first time you said you disagreed

I think your "rumor" would be a fine house rule with the existing DR levels. Just don't think it would work well for stuff like /blunt or with the new DR levels.

BTW - I will concede the point that your rumor may be true, it's just that if it is, and given Andy's points, it seems really dumb for WotC to do that

IceBear

Nah, that's okay, happens too often around here...I just usually try to understand someone's arguments before I try to disagree with him

And I have to admit that it would make a better house rule with the current DR values AND special materials ruling...hmmm, all those possibilities...

 

[Grog]

The amount of posts on this subject shows how hard it is to come up with a good system for DR... but from what I have read about the new system and what I have seen here I think it will be VERY good. The point of the whole system is not to force every fighter to carry every type of weapon but to give monsters flavor.

And why exactly is a new DR system needed to give monsters flavor? D&D already has hundreds of different monsters and a huge amount of flavor among them. Are you telling me that the only difference in flavor between an ogre and a pit fiend is the fact that the pit fiend has DR?

And while the point of the system may not be to force every fighter to carry every type of weapon, that is exactly what the system will do.

So what if it has DC 10/silver ... if you don’t have any silver weapons you will just do less damage that fight and maybe just maybe the players will have to be creative to deal with the encounter. Even if they just charge right in and the DM is using the right CR monsters for your group you will survive.

I love the way people say, "No big deal, you'll just do less damage that fight" like all it is is some kind of minor inconvienence.

People, when your damage is reduced to one-third or less than what it usually is, that is not a minor inconvienence. That is a drastic reduction in your combat capability. It has the potential to turn an encounter that was only meant to be fairly challenging into a very lethal one.

If someone is playing a fighter, and his party is facing a dangerous monster, and he finds himself unable to deal significant damage to said monster through its DR, then one of two things will happen:

A) The rest of the party will defeat the monster without any help from the fighter, which will make the player feel useless - which is no fun for the player;

or

B) The rest of the party won't be able to defeat the monster, and the group will have to flee for their lives, leaving a couple of dead bodies behind, or possibly end up in a TPK - also no fun for the player(s).

Of course, the fighter's player won't want either of these things to happen, so he will carry around as many different weapons as he needs to deal with monster DR - and thus, we have the golf bag of weaponry scenario.

And yes, I know players can sometimes find creative ways to deal with encounters. But sometimes they can't, and I don't want the players' fun to be smothered in those situations.

Basically: Stop complaining till you have used the system for 3 years and then make a judgment.

This is a ridiculous statement. I could just as easily tell you to stop praising the system until you've used it for 3 years.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I love the way people say, "No big deal, you'll just do less damage that fight" like all it is is some kind of minor inconvienence.

People, when your damage is reduced to one-third or less than what it usually is, that is not a minor inconvienence. That is a drastic reduction in your combat capability. It has the potential to turn an encounter that was only meant to be fairly challenging into a very lethal one.

If someone is playing a fighter, and his party is facing a dangerous monster, and he finds himself unable to deal significant damage to said monster through its DR, then one of two things will happen:

A) The rest of the party will defeat the monster without any help from the fighter, which will make the player feel useless - which is no fun for the player;

or

B) The rest of the party won't be able to defeat the monster, and the group will have to flee for their lives, leaving a couple of dead bodies behind, or possibly end up in a TPK - also no fun for the player(s).

This is one of the big issues I have. Some have basically said, well other people in the aprty will pick up the slack, so what if you do a little less damage this fight. And sure if your the rogue I'm with that statement, but if your the fighter, what a bunch of crap. All the fighters class abilities do is help him fight, he basically sucks at everything else. (hopefully this will change somewhat) A fighter should in his career from level 1-20 have to take a backseat in a fight and let someone else pick up the slack at most the number of times i can count on one hand wihout using a finger more than once. Unfortunately this isn't so in the current system and it will be even less so in the new DR system witout the golf bag of weaponry.(or some silly buff spell that makes this pointless)

 

[Technik4]

IF the special material DR comes up often enough that fighters feel they arent getting their slice of pie, than I would say there is a problem. But not with special material DR.

The new DR WILL add flavor to certain monsters, flavor they once had and presently dont. Its not some willy-nilly decision to just scatter DR around, there are some monsters that traditionally have different ways of hurting them. Lyncanthropes and Skeletons spring to mind. I think if the system is overused it will be unpopular, but if it is used with discretion it will be a lot of fun.

If your fighter has never had a special DR fight, and he does have one, that the DM didn't drop some hints that were coming, AND the fighter doesnt have any sort of interesting utility combat feat (Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, etc etc) THEN all the fighter will be able to do is think of something ingenious and meatshield for the party. Afterwards, if the party manages to determine what kind of monster it was, and what sort of weapon would have penetrated its hide, then the fighter may go and buy such a weapon.

At the end of a long career (level 20) you could easily have not fought more than 1 or 2 special material DR creatures, which means unless youre a paranoid min/maxer you only have about 3 weapons, at least one of which you probably havent used for a long time as you fought the special material monster when you were a lower level.

Can the scenario easily be switched to one where the fighter constantly feels a little left out by the massive amount of special material DR hes facing? Yes, but at that point its a conscious decision by either a module designer or a dm. And if its the SAME kind of special materials DR, the fighter may decide that his main weapon will become a weapon made from that material, and it will be something associated with him to give him prestige, people will know the fighter who carries a dark red sword named Fairy Bane.

The rules can twist and contort as you and your dm are willing to twist them. Some people see golfbags, and some people see more opportunity for individual fighters.

Technik

 

[Grog]

If your fighter has never had a special DR fight, and he does have one, that the DM didn't drop some hints that were coming, AND the fighter doesnt have any sort of interesting utility combat feat (Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, etc etc) THEN all the fighter will be able to do is think of something ingenious and meatshield for the party. Afterwards, if the party manages to determine what kind of monster it was, and what sort of weapon would have penetrated its hide, then the fighter may go and buy such a weapon.

Exactly! (Assuming the party survived the encounter, that is).

In fact, the fighter would have to be an idiot to not go and buy such a weapon at his earliest opportunity.

But let's take this example a step further. Wouldn't the fighter, knowing he was going into a dangerous situation, and not knowing what kind of creatures the party might run into, research what kind of weapons he might need before going on the adventure?

Of course he would. So he finds out that different creatures have a variety of damage resistance, and he finds out that there are half a dozen (or however many there are) different types of weapons that will penetrate the various resistances. So he goes out and gets those weapons, because he doesn't know what he'll be facing on the adventure, but he wants to be prepared.

Which gives us the good ol' golf bag of weaponry.

At the end of a long career (level 20) you could easily have not fought more than 1 or 2 special material DR creatures, which means unless youre a paranoid min/maxer you only have about 3 weapons, at least one of which you probably havent used for a long time as you fought the special material monster when you were a lower level.

I strongly doubt this would ever happen, but for the sake of argument, let's go ahead and assume that the DM only used 1 or 2 special material DR creatures over the course of a 20 level campaign.

I bet that most players would still have a golf bag of weaponry, even in the above scenario. Because, even though they've only met 1 or 2 special material DR creatures, there could be one right around the next corner for all they know. And they'd want to be able to deal with such a creature if they do happen to run into one.

After all, lots of people will go their entire lives without ever getting in a car accident, and yet they'll still buckle their seat belt every time they get in a car.

It's just common sense.

 

[Technik4]

Its common sense true, but lots of people DONT buckle their seatbelts as well. Not that I really like that analogy. Most people lock their doors at night, but lots of people dont have quadruple locks, an alarm system, a neighborhood watch program, a dog, a robotic dog in case the real dog dies, a live-in security guard, etc in their house in case they get robbed.

Personally I would rule that any such golfbag thinking by the fighter is metagaming, and metagaming has a habit of getting the whole party in trouble.

Everyone that supports the golfbag theory seems to think that every fighter is some conscientious really reliable person who has a checklist of things to bring before going to the dungeon. What about the "slow" barbarian? Or the over-zealous (and overlooking) paladin? These *characters* wouldnt think to buy every weapon under the sun, even if their more paranoid players might.

I like the idea someone else was talking about, how each character sortof covers one type of special materials. The rogue has silver daggers and a silver short sword, the cleric has a holy mace and a holy sword, the wizard has a cold iron quarterstaff (the tips anyway), and the fighter wields whatever the heck he wants. If trouble comes he just requisitions whatever weapon he needs from the party "Gimme that staff...QUICK", etc.

By high levels there will almost certainly be some kind of spell to enhance whatever the fighter is using to fight any given DR, as long as the party has knowledge of what the DR penetration is. Therefore, as I said before, fighters wont "need" a golfbag, though I dont doubt paranoid fighters will have them. I just know I never wanted to play a fighter before now, but Im actually considering because the fighters job got a little trickier.

As far as what someone else said about fighters not having skill points, well look at sorcerors and clerics. If you want skill points then sacrafice AC (dex), HP (con), or something else for int.

Just as people found ways around old DR, so will people find ways around new DR, have no fear. I like to think these golfbag theories will never come to pass and one day I will make a post titled "Remember when we thought there would be golfbags on every fighter?".

Technik

 

[Teleri_mm]

Grog:

If you notice my statement relies on the DM understanding how the encounter should work... if the DM does not understand how to use DR (meaning he/she throws them in with out thinking of the consequences) then yes your are right the party will be screwed or the fighter will be made 'useless'. The point of DR is to make the players think twice before attacking that loan wolf… not kill them. If your DM uses them to try to kill you then I guess you need to find a new DM... ether way I think if it is used the way it is intended the new DR will make a great addition to the game.

*shrug* but then again I could be wrong… I will get back to you in 3 years.

Teleri_mm