Revised movement system

[Kerrick]

The movement rules are, quite bluntly, ridiculous. Whoever wrote them has NO idea of what a person who is in shape (i.e., most adventurers) can do. Case in point:

A character with a Constitution score of 9 or higher can run for a minute without a problem. Generally, a character can run for a minute or two before having to rest for a minute.

*guffaw* I guess all those people who run marathons are some kind of superhero freaks. Or even those of us in the US military - the physical fitness test requires you to run 2 miles in a certain time limit - for 18-21 year olds, it's 16 minutes. Most people can do it in under 14, which is around Run x3. But according to the table, you can't move at that rate for more than 900 ft. before needing a rest!

Or this:

A character can’t run for an extended period of time.

I guess no one told the Zulus that.

Anyway... I came up with an alternate system that actually allows you to run all day, allows for "riding your horse to death" (i.e., riding it past the point of exhaustion, to where it simply drops dead), or running yourself (or another) into the ground - the soldier who supposedly ran from Marathon to Athens to announce the defeat of the Persians, then dropped dead of exhaustion, for example.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Additional notes
[sblock]Does anyone else find it odd that fatigue and exhaustion don't apply Con penalties? Yes, that's right, folks – you can be about to fall over from exhaustion, but you're still in tip-top shape, healthwise. I suggest adding a Con penalty the same as Strength/Dex (or replacing the Dex penalty): -2 for fatigue, and -6 for exhaustion. Yes, this makes the checks harder – that's the point. If you're running to the point of exhaustion, you should be tired. It should be hard to make additional checks. That's what the Endurance feat is for – to offset the penalties for being fatigued and exhausted. That's why rangers get it for free at 3rd level.[/sblock]

Your Con determines your overall health. Your example means that running makes you less healthy. Even pushed to the point in which your muscles no longer respond to your commands, you're still in the same shape, health-wise, you were when you started the day. Not to mention the fact that a lvl 1 commoner, a person who worked, for example, on a farm all his life will die after running for a minute or two?
Having a cumulative penalty to running checks makes it harder to push yourself. It is built into the system. Contrary to what some people may think, running is not some Con-damaging, life-threatening disease.

Actually, the military uses 1.5 miles, and the 'older-than-dirt' time requirements are around 16 minutes. 20-25 was about 14 minutes. The test also includes before running: reaching your toes while sitting, legs extended, up to 67 sit ups, up to 67 push ups, for maximum scoring. I can't remember the minimums, but they're around 30ish.

 

[Kerrick]

Not to mention the fact that a lvl 1 commoner, a person who worked, for example, on a farm all his life will die after running for a minute or two?

Huh?

Having a cumulative penalty to running checks makes it harder to push yourself. It is built into the system. Contrary to what some people may think, running is not some Con-damaging, life-threatening disease.

No, but pushing yourself beyond your normal limits is - you CAN work yourself to the point of exhaustion or even death, by not stopping, not taking sufficient rest, or simply doing too much - all that work takes its toll on the system as a whole, making it harder to regenerate (heal) damage. Have you ever seen someone who worked 60, 70, 80 hours a week? They're constantly worn out, and not just from a lack of sleep. THAT is the result of Con damage.

Actually, the military uses 1.5 miles, and the 'older-than-dirt' time requirements are around 16 minutes. 20-25 was about 14 minutes. The test also includes before running: reaching your toes while sitting, legs extended, up to 67 sit ups, up to 67 push ups, for maximum scoring. I can't remember the minimums, but they're around 30ish.

Actually the Air Force uses the 1.5 mile run. The Army, Marines, and Navy use 2 miles (I know this because I spent four years in the Army). The time requirements go UP as you reach higher age brackets, not down (the minimum time for 20-25 is something like 17:30). And yeah, the APFT also includes situps and pushups, but since those weren't part of my point, I didn't include them.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Huh?


No, but pushing yourself beyond your normal limits is - you CAN work yourself to the point of exhaustion or even death, by not stopping, not taking sufficient rest, or simply doing too much - all that work takes its toll on the system as a whole, making it harder to regenerate (heal) damage. Have you ever seen someone who worked 60, 70, 80 hours a week? They're constantly worn out, and not just from a lack of sleep. THAT is the result of Con damage.


Actually the Air Force uses the 1.5 mile run. The Army, Marines, and Navy use 2 miles (I know this because I spent four years in the Army). The time requirements go UP as you reach higher age brackets, not down (the minimum time for 20-25 is something like 17:30). And yeah, the APFT also includes situps and pushups, but since those weren't part of my point, I didn't include them.

I was navy, they use 1.5 miles too.

Level 1 Commoner has 1d4 hit points and a 11 Con. They run and fail a check or two, they lose 6 points of Con and go from 2.5 hit points average to unconscious and bleeding out. in as little as 2 minutes running.

Someone who constantly pushes beyond their physical limits gets stronger, as their body builds toward a tolerance to that exertion. The guy who is not getting enough sleep and is working 60-70 hours is probably not doing physically taxing work. If he is doing, for example, construction work or steelwork, chances are his years of hard work are paying off by giving him a buff physique. A computer programmer or fry cook, for example, doing the same hours isn't coming anywhere near to that.
"Welcome to McDonald's, may I bench 350 for you?"

 

[Random Axe]

*guffaw* I guess all those people who run marathons are some kind of superhero freaks. Or even those of us in the US military - the physical fitness test requires you to run 2 miles in a certain time limit - for 18-21 year olds, it's 16 minutes. Most people can do it in under 14, which is around Run x3. But according to the table, you can't move at that rate for more than 900 ft. before needing a rest!

You seem to be missing out on the fact that we are talking about D&D, not a Boston Marathon. Even these little speedfreaks on a marathon would have a LOT of trouble running for an extended period in medium or heavy armor with swords, maces or spiked chains, and other standard gear, without having to stop to rest.

 

[Kerrick]

Level 1 Commoner has 1d4 hit points and a 11 Con. They run and fail a check or two, they lose 6 points of Con and go from 2.5 hit points average to unconscious and bleeding out. in as little as 2 minutes running.

True. Okay, so having a Con penalty for fatigue is not a good idea. I'm kind of wondering, though, what the difference between a penalty to Con and actual damage is? Is a penalty just applied to Fort saves and Con checks based on the effective Con score, or is it an actual adjustment?

You seem to be missing out on the fact that we are talking about D&D, not a Boston Marathon. Even these little speedfreaks on a marathon would have a LOT of trouble running for an extended period in medium or heavy armor with swords, maces or spiked chains, and other standard gear, without having to stop to rest.

Agreed. But the rules say that you can't run for extended periods AT ALL. Even if you have zero encumbrance, the best you can do (for more than a minute, apparently) is a hustle, which is patently absurd. I'd like to figure out a way to determine how long a person could run based on his encumbrance - a lightly-encumbered (or armored) person could run all day, a medium-encumbered person could run for a couple hours, and a heavily encumbered person could run for maybe half an hour. All subject to their Con scores, of course.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Agreed. But the rules say that you can't run for extended periods AT ALL. Even if you have zero encumbrance, the best you can do (for more than a minute, apparently) is a hustle, which is patently absurd. I'd like to figure out a way to determine how long a person could run based on his encumbrance - a lightly-encumbered (or armored) person could run all day, a medium-encumbered person could run for a couple hours, and a heavily encumbered person could run for maybe half an hour. All subject to their Con scores, of course.

The people running marathons have been doing anything they can to raise their Con score, as well as doing whatever they can to give them bonuses to their endurance checks. They have a much higher probability of making the first couple dozen checks than Joe Blow with 10 Con who never runs at all. Also, someone running in a marathon isn't really running. There isn't a person alive that can actually run, like flat out run, for more than a mile or two. Long distance runners pace themselves, so they don't fail those Con checks and get tired. For flat out running, the Run(x4) of a 40ft movement (human with the Quick trait, +10 move) is faster than a 4 minute mile. Run(x5) with a 30ft move is slightly less than that. That is pretty close to human potential. Which makes sense, people who dedicate themselves to running fast, well, run fast. Level 1 Commoner with Run and Endurance can be an Olympic sprinter.

 

[Kerrick]

Also, someone running in a marathon isn't really running. There isn't a person alive that can actually run, like flat out run, for more than a mile or two.

The world record for marathon running is just over 2 hours for a man, and 2:15 for a woman; the top ten runners or either gender (recorded in the last 10 years) all have times within 5 minutes of the record. In case you're wondering, that's a 5-minute mile pace.

Obviously, most participants do not run a marathon to win. More important for most runners is their personal finish time and their placement within their specific age group and gender. Another very important goal is to break certain time barriers. For example, ambitious recreational first-timers often try to run the marathon under 4 hours; more competitive runners may attempt to run under 3 hours.

4 hours is about a 9-minute mile, or a hustle. 3 hours is around a 7-minute mile, or Run x3.

The people running marathons have been doing anything they can to raise their Con score, as well as doing whatever they can to give them bonuses to their endurance checks. They have a much higher probability of making the first couple dozen checks than Joe Blow with 10 Con who never runs at all.

Now here we can agree - marathon runners have the Run and Endurance feats, high Con, and whatnot. Put an athlete in an endurance race against Joe Fatbeard, and the athlete will keep going far past the point where Joe's collapsed.

Level 1 Commoner has 1d4 hit points and a 11 Con. They run and fail a check or two, they lose 6 points of Con and go from 2.5 hit points average to unconscious and bleeding out. in as little as 2 minutes running.

Oh, I checked on this in the Rules forum (I was asking about stat penalties vs. stat damage)... according to Hypersmurf, you can't go below 1 hp/die, no matter how few Con points you have. I forgot about that rule - you can't die from Con damage unless and until you're reduced to 0 Con. I'm going to drop Con damage from fatigue/exhaustion, though, and just go with Con damage for failed checks.

 

[Stormrunner]

I think the problem here is one of terminology. When D&D says "run" it means "sprint" - running as fast as you possibly can - and marathon runners don't do that.

The world record for marathon running is just over 2 hours for a man, and 2:15 for a woman; the top ten runners or either gender (recorded in the last 10 years) all have times within 5 minutes of the record. In case you're wondering, that's a 5-minute mile pace.

In other words, slower than the under-4-minute record for a single mile (which in turn is slower than the record for the 100-yard sprint). IOW, marathon runners are not sprinting.

4 hours is about a 9-minute mile, or a hustle.

Ta-dah. So for a first-timer (i.e., probably lacking special feats), marathon running = a hustle.

3 hours is around a 7-minute mile, or Run x3.

Or a hustle, for someone with the Quick trait and/or the Dash feat.

 

[Kerrick]

I think the problem here is one of terminology. When D&D says "run" it means "sprint" - running as fast as you possibly can - and marathon runners don't do that.

Right. I never said they were. I went back and did a little work on this system, and I renamed Run x3, x4, and x5 to Run, Dash, and Sprint respectively - it made it a lot easier to me to keep track of things. I've let it sit for awhile becasue I got busy with more important things, but before that, I calculated some numbers.

A person hustling (x2 speed) can run a marathon in about 4 hours.
A person running (x3 speed) can run a marathon in about 2.5 hours.
A person dashing (x4 speed) can run a marathon in just under 2 hours (world record pace).

Oddly enough (and sadly) there's no equatable speed for a 3-hour pace, unless someone chooses to move at a rate between x2 and x3 (which he can choose to do - you don't always have to move at full speed all the time). He will fail some Con checks; a friend of mine who's run in marathons said he was sore for a couple days afterward (which equates to Con damage).

Anyway, my point is that someone with the feats and who is in shape CAN run at a x3 or x4 pace for long distances, which (obviously) directly contradicts the rules. Not all PCs will be able to do that, but I want to make it possible for them to do so if they choose, while still following real-world physics.