Revising Attacks Of Opportunity

Then you've misread my position. I'm not advocating removing AoOs. What I am arguing is that trying to fix the corner cases is pointless, for the reason I gave above - it's holes all the way down.

I haven't misread anything. I know what your position is. I disagree. My position remains that it is a good system both in its effect on the game and in the fact that it allows for the game to be played in the familiar pattern that most games are played in - people taking turns.

I believe I have demonstrated that the size of the corner cases is smaller than one might think, and that those corners can be largely filled by a smaller set of rules than you might expect. Heck, you can even fix really big holes like 'pass the baton' in a single sentence.

To the extent that we've uncovered real limitations to what we can't fix, in my opinion they are less a problem having to do with AoO's or even the turn based nature of the combat mini-game than they have to do with granularity in chargen and system resolution. Those problems are truly unavoidable because they have to do with limitations of the proposition->fortune->resolution cycle that any simulation is going to have. It's only in 'how granular are we going to be' where we find holes all the way down, and then primarily only because the time to resolve the proposition becomes itself a problem with the system. The AoO's are fine and can and should be leveraged in a common sense fashion, as we have already been doing in this discussion. Only as we try to solve problems of granularity, "Can I take a 2 foot step? What does it mean?" or "How should the advantage in reach of my 42" blade be modeled when I fight a 36" blade compared to a 24" blade?" that we hit problems not solvable by rules (at least without a computer assisted resolution).

"Can I stand here and let someone attack me, and if so what happens?", is not a problem that is remotely unsolvable by applying rules.
 

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Honestly, I would rule "no" without a suitable feat to that effect (something like Robilar's Gambit).
Out of curiosity, why? There should be some cost? Like a skill check, feat, or action cost? Just curious.
By the spirit of the rules, no. They're a fix for when your opponent does "something stupid" in combat. Neither helpless opponents nor objects are doing something stupid.

But by a "common-sensical" approach, then yes - if doing something can provoke then doing nothing should provoke.
I'm basically asking about the latter. What do you think about that from a game balance approach?
There's a mechanism for doing these things - Ready.
Well, the same could be said for attacking people out of turn in melee.
For me, the bottom line is this: Attacks of Opportunity are a cludge to fix a hole in the combat system. They're not a good cludge or a well-thought out cludge, but they're necessary unless you're happy to significantly alter the way combat plays.
Right, I agree. I'm opening a discussion about maybe messing around with the cludge and making it more intuitive.
So, fine, they should stay in. But that does mean that their impact should be minimised as far as possible. So I actively don't want to add lots more cases where AoOs can be provoked, I don't want lots of feats added to trigger them and take advantage of them, and I don't want the designers exploring that "design space".

So while you can indeed make "common-sensical" arguments for allowing AoOs against helpless opponents, or with a spell, or with a ranged weapon, you're actually applying common sense to something that isn't actually sensible. And in doing so you're applying stress to one of the weak points in the combat engine. IMO, not a good idea.
I'm curious about this. Can you explain why you think expanding here would be a bad idea? I'm not saying you're wrong about your view, since I'm not sure on your reasoning yet. Why do you think it would be bad for the game?

Thank you for the time on the replies, too :)
 

Otherwise, if you don't want to do that, since by your own estimation AoO's are necessary, I suggest your dislike of AoO's is both irrational and also suggests you don't have much to contribute to a thread on the topic of AoO.
I actually think -based on past board history- that he has some to contribute on this. I feel like you also have a lot of interesting views on revising 3.X, as we've both done it extensively. But please, as a courtesy to me, don't discourage participation from others when I'm trying to have a discussion. I appreciate it :)
 

I actually think -based on past board history- that he has some to contribute on this.

So did I, but unfortunately I don't have either time or energy to debate the issue with Celebrim right now.

I do think our differences here are more down to communication problems than anything else, but I'm at a loss as to where the problem came in. In any case, rather than get frustrated and say something I'd regret (and to a poster for whom I have a lot of respect), I'm going to bow out here.

Sorry.
 

I do think our differences here are more down to communication problems than anything else, but I'm at a loss as to where the problem came in.

I can answer that.

You said:

their impact should be minimized as far as possible. So I actively don't want to add lots more cases where AoOs can be provoked, I don't want lots of feats added to trigger them and take advantage of them, and I don't want the designers exploring that "design space".

So while you can indeed make "common-sensical" arguments for allowing AoOs against helpless opponents, or with a spell, or with a ranged weapon, you're actually applying common sense to something that isn't actually sensible. And in doing so you're applying stress to one of the weak points in the combat engine. IMO, not a good idea.

To me this is a declaration in very strong terms that the whole premise of the discussion is a bad idea and that the conversation should be stopped. You flatly declare you don't wish to see designers exploring the design space around AoO. You flatly declare you find the whole notion of the AoO to be nonsense, poorly thought out, and badly designed. You feel and have stated the ideal design would be one that minimizes AoO's until they almost never come up except in those few cases you consider a necessary evil.

First, while everyone's sense of what makes play enjoyable is different, I disagree with all of that. I disagree with it to the point that I would say:

"I actively want to add cases where AoOs can be provoked. I want feats and combat maneuvers that leverage the AoO system and uses it as a resource, and I want to explore that design space.

You can indeed make common sense arguments for how the AoO should be applied in various cases, whether for allowing AoOs against helpless opponents, or with a spell, or with a ranged weapon. You're applying common sense to something that is actually sensible, and in doing so you're applying stress to one of the strong and robust points in the combat engine. Which is in my opinion a good idea."

Does that suggest to you that are differences are mere matters of miscommunication? Because I don't know how you can suggest that AoO's are a weak point in the system, and I can suggest that they are a strong point in the system, and you can conclude from that that we'd be in agreement if we were communicating more clearly.

And secondly, if that really is your opinion on the matter, I don't see how you have anything to say on the topic of improving the sensibility of AoOs other than, "You are doing it wrong." You've denied that there is a common sense approach here and seem reluctant to reveal whatever revelatory, counter-intuitive, or gnostic wisdom that you think we ought to be using to rule on game situations, nor are you actually suggesting fixes or alternative designs that we could apply. Presumably, based on what you've said, you don't feel those fixes exist. And quite frankly, suggesting that we widely leverage the Ready action - literally the weakest part of the whole 3e combat engine, one that tries to kludge fixes literally the weakest link in the system*, one that is so infamous that at least one person on the boards has in their signature something to the effect of if you are suggesting the Ready action as a fix for anything you've lost the argument - suggests to me that whatever your skill as a designer in other areas may be, you aren't likely to come up with those innovative designs in this area any time soon.

Is there any part of this "bottom line" of yours you think I'm failing to understand? Because if you really do have innovative designs that are less nonsensical than an AoO, I really would love to see your revelation. If you really have something to contribute, by all means do so. Otherwise all I'm hearing is that you think people talking about this area of the rules is badwrongfun.

*(The weakest link in the 3e combat system is that its trying to emulate simultaneous action with its opposite. The reason the AoO innovation is so strong is it actually provides for simultaneous action and quantifies the ability to act simultaneously as a resource to be used, thereby mitigating the problems with linearity. You can see the realization by the designers of just how strong an idea that this is by the introduction of the reaction move in 5e, which is apply the idea of a move to the idea of the AoO. This is one example of deliberately increasing the impact of the AoO system, add lots more cases where it comes up, adding lots of different ways to trigger or take advantage of them, and deeply exploring that design space. By contrast, the reason that the Ready action is actually a necessary evil is that it tries to fix the problem of lack of simultaneous action by spending a very valuable resource that can only be applied linearly. Good design probably minimizes the number of times a player would feel forced to take the ready action.)
 

I can answer that.

You said:

<snip>

Ah yes. Yes I did.

And there's the root of it: I laid out my position really badly. I do apologise.

Nonetheless, rather than try to restate it, I think I'm going to stick with my previous decision to withdraw from this thread. Once again, though: sorry, my fault.
 

So did I, but unfortunately I don't have either time or energy to debate the issue with Celebrim right now.

I do think our differences here are more down to communication problems than anything else, but I'm at a loss as to where the problem came in. In any case, rather than get frustrated and say something I'd regret (and to a poster for whom I have a lot of respect), I'm going to bow out here.

Sorry.
I'd try to convince you to stay and talk to me, but it looks like it might be better for you to bow out. You're the one making the Wisdom check here. Thanks anyway, delericho :)
 

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