Revising the Half-Orc -- a Variant

[haiiro]

Theres another version there of the Half-Elf that gives a bonus to both Dex and Cha, and is a ECL 1 race. Giving an ECL to the Half-Orc could let you make it interesting, somethig closer to your original race if you wanted. You could say that a humans intellect combined with the Orcs primal nature allows for things such as scent, or the natural ability to rage.

I agree that making half-orcs ECL +1 gives you more latitude to work with, but I want to keep them ECL 0 like the other core races.

I think what you should do is figure out what effect you want, and then try to balance it rules-wise. Rules are supposed to be made to fit the concepts, not the other way around.

Beyond wanting a race that embodies some of the traits of both parents without being overpowered, I guess I don't have a specific effect/concept I'm aiming for. More overtly a race of outcasts than half-elves, and combining the brute strength and savagery of their orcish lineage with some of the fire and versatility of their human parent. I definitely want to keep them relatively campaign-neutral.

 

[Plane Sailing]

You are reducing their penalties and increasing their benefits.

I don't see in what way you consider this to be even *remotely* balanced for a basic race .

Now if you went for +2 Str and -2 Dex it might be a valid change, but Str is sooooo good. The amazing benefits of darkvision for all dungeon adventuring is phenomenal too (and remember the design theme for 3e? "back to the dungeon").

Frankly, I think the existing PHB half-orc is a bit too good as he is! The only change I'd possibly consider is a +1 intimidate bonus to offset his Cha penalty... if I hadn't already switched Intimidate to be based on Str.

Cheers

 

[haiiro]

You are reducing their penalties and increasing their benefits.

I don't see in what way you consider this to be even *remotely* balanced for a basic race .

Reducing penalties and increasing benefits is the whole idea. As I see it, the PHB half-orc has a net attribute loss; I understand that this is not the WotC view, and perhaps not the prevailing view among players, but it is arguable. On top of that net loss, they get one good special ability -- darkvision -- and one weak one, orc blood.

I don't feel that this stacks up well when compared to humans, who have no penalties of any sort and get two great abilities -- extra skill points and a bonus feat -- and one good one, "favored class: any."

I'm open to other options, and this is definitely a work in progress. I can see why the bonus feat might be a problematic addition, and I understand the "strength is good" perspective. But even if you assume that darkvision matches up to the human's bonus feat or extra skill points, and the STR+/CHA- shift is somehow worth as much as the other good human ability, that still leaves favored class versatility to balance out. Even playing it conservatively, I think that leaves room for some skill or save bonuses, for example.

Maybe I'm coming at this whole process from the wrong angle (comparing the race to humans), but I think it's an interesting design exercise and I'm learning from the process.

Edit: out of curiosity, what do you think of my variant half-elf? The design principle is the same, and there's a net increase in abilities...but I'm still curious.

Half-Elves:

- +2 CHA, -2 CON
- Medium size
- Base speed 30 ft.
- 4 extra skill points at first level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level
- +1 racial saving throw bonus vs. enchantment spells and effects
- Low-light vision
- +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks
- Elven blood
- Automatic languages: Common and Elven
- Bonus Languages: Any
- Favored Class: Bard

(The stat shift and favored class are both Maximillian's idea, and definitely the core of this revision.)

 

[Quip]

Save bonus? How about this?

First, lets give full blooded orcs this ability:

Fearless (Ex)
Orcs are immune to fear spells and fear related effects.


And likewise, half-orcs would have:

Fear Resistant (Ex)
Half-Orcs recieve a +4 bonus against all fear spells and fear related effects.


These make more sense if you read Asgard #7, in the article concerning orcish culture. Basically, they are extremely fatalistic and relish the thought of their own deaths. The only emotion that the race allows for at all is hatered. This just takes it a bit further, so that they bred out the capability of fear completely. You could even extend these to all emotion related effects, if you wished.


About the half-elf, eh, I don't really think they should have ability modifiers at all. But that aside, your version looks balanced well enough. I always thought they needed the skill points, and +2 Cha/-2 Con is ok. Dont expect a half elf that isn't a bard, paladin or sorceror though. And with the bard least often, sorcerors every other time.

 

[Andion Isurand]

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

My half-orc as it is now

/////////////// HALF-ORC ///////////////

# +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
A half-orc's starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character's score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
# Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
# Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
# Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
# For the purpose of determining the skill points gained at each level, treat the half-orc's intelligence score as being 2 points higher than its actual value.
# +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks.
# Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
# Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
# Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-orc takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.

/////////////// HUMAN ///////////////

# For the purpose of determining the skill points gained at each level, treat the human's intelligence score as being 2 points higher than its actual value.

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Although full orcs tend to be agressive and brutish, half-orcs shouldn't fall into such a stereotype. For languages & favored classes, the half-orc should be treated like the other half-races.

The bonus skill points let half orcs have a skill rank total half way between that of a full human and that of a full orc, without cherry picking Intelligence or Charisma, and still coming across as slightly little dulled in RP. This allows the half-orc to make a good skill monkey tilted towards combat as opposed to interaction.

Now, considering that these are full blooded orcs, why can't half-orcs be treated more like half-elves.....
...thus allow them to choose any perfeered class they want.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Full Orc subtypes ( Races of Faerûn )

Gray Orc
+2 str, -2 int, +2 wis, -2 cha
Base Speed 40 ft. ( this along with Scent = ECL +1)
Favored Class: Cleric

Mountain Orc
+4 str, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha
Favored Class: Barbarian


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

[Mike Sullivan]

A highly variant Half Orc:

• +2 Cha, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int. Half Orcs have a mostly Orc musculature on a mostly Human frame. They can't utilize their muscles for raw strength the way their Orc parent can (without breaking their own bones), but the result is muscles that don't tire as easily and bulk up their body, giving them a certain resistance to damage. However, they also have slow twitch reflexes and tend to be a little hulking, leading to low agility. Half Orcs aren't the brightest creatures, a slowness of thought being a legacy of their Orc blood, but in order to survive in a world hostile to them, they develop great force of personality.
  
• Medium Sized
  
• Base movement 25 feet. As noted above, Half Orcs tend to be a bit lumbering.
  
• Darkvision 30 feet.
  
• Orc blood.
  
• Automatic Languages: Common or Orcish. Half Orcs are generally brought up in one culture -- either human or orcish. They learn the native tongue of their culture.
  
• Bonus Languages: Any
  
• Favored Class: Barbarian. Half Orcs don't tend to live in civilized areas, where they are anathema.

So, the idea is that the Str change is too devisive. Instead, give them both a bonus and a penalty to both mental stats and physical ones. This reduces making them a perfect fit for one or two classes and a terrible one for other classes.

Of course, Half Orcs are generally ugly, but that's not what Charisma is.

The unchanged favored class is a balance point -- they aren't real great barbarians any more. I'd say the more ideal classes are Sorcerer (duh), or Paladin (!). So by not giving them a favored class in either of those, you make them a little less playable, which I think the state bonuses demand.

 

[Technik4]

I think there is wayy too much tweaking going on. Personally, I dont like the half-orc too much, as it comes off bland. It has few abilities, and the ones it does have are set. The human race also has few abilities, but they are pickable, hence less bland. However, I think that is the entire point of the human race. For half-orcs, I think the ability mods come out fine. Cha is still the weakest ability mod in 3e, as it only influences a subset of skills and of course cha checks. Granted, for a half-orc sorceror, its a hit, but it also makes for an interesting character. I give half-orcs with Wis 11+ the ability to take scent as a feat. They can also choose a +2 in intimidate or a +2 in wilderness lore.

Their favored class is unchanged, with good reason. Favored class represents something that your race can do, has a history to do, or would not get in the way of you doing something else (IMO), hence for a half-orc that is barbarism. I dont care if you were raised in a manor by some wealthy humans or in a hovel with some orcs, looking in a mirror tells you your roots, and there is always the beast within for you to embrace.

As far as half-elves, I was toying with a flat +2 Cha, but it is too powerful. It also doesnt fit with how most races were designed (see below). As of now, I think they are balanced with other races, but come off a little weaker. The popular +1 skill points/level is not a bad idea, and I would allow it.

I am against giving them ability mods; if anything, according to other races by wotc, a -2 cha would be appropriate. This would represent their place in society as it does for tieflings, half-orcs, dwarves, and genasi. Unfortunately, I have no idea what mod they would get in exchange for a -2 cha, though wis comes to mind. And that would probably make them too powerful.

The problem with radically different half-breeds is destroying what balance is in place now. Half-orcs do get played quite a bit, and they are hardly ever accused of being "weak". Just ask any half-orc barbarian. While they dont have the diversity of humans, neither should they, it is more difficult for them to be other classes, which is a testament to how well humans were made, as humans make a good "anything" as far as classes.

Diversify half-orcs or half-elves or make them more powerful and the race you end up tweaking the most is humans.

Technik

 

[haiiro]

Quip: I like the bonuses to saves vs. fear -- it seems like a good implementation of a setting-specific cultural trait. If I wind up taking the half-orc in a direction that is more tied to a particular setting, I might use something just like that. Thanks.

Andion: This is the most conservative half-orc variant so far, and given the general opinions expressed so far about my proposed variant, I think this is probably the right idea.

I'm starting to see why people consider +2 STR/-2 INT, -2 CHA to be balanced (or even consider that trade-off a bonus), and I think dropping it back to +2 STR/-2 CHA and treating that as a significant "special ability" is probably a good idea. Allowing half-orcs the same favored class versatility as humans is also an easy fix, although it removes a bit of their flavor.

The only thing I don't like about your variant is the nonstandard base speed, as both parent races have a base speed of 30 feet. If I were to change it, I'd drop that in favor of a +1 or +2 to Intimidate checks (which adds some flavor as well).

Mike: I think your variant would be interesting for certain types of campaign, but takes the half-orc too far from its PHB role for my liking. It does neatly sidestep the whole STR issue, though.

Technik4: I like the idea of offering a choice between skill bonuses, and both options make sense (depending on character background). I also see where you're coming from with regards to half-orcs still being popular despite their flaws -- my first 3e character was a half-orc, and he was brutal in melee combat. The STR bonus makes a huge difference, but I do think the double penalty pigeonholes the half-orc a bit more than necessary.

Thanks to all who have responded so far.

Here's another take on the half-orc, this time based more on Andion's version:

Half-Orcs:

- +2 STR, -2 CHA
- Medium size
- Base speed 30 ft.
- +2 bonus to Intimidate checks
- Orc blood
- Darkvision
- Automatic languages: Common and Orc
- Bonus languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal
- Favored class: Barbarian

Even for a melee fighter, I think the choice between half-orc and human is not a clear one (which is a good thing). A damage-oriented fighter would likely go with half-orc, while a maneuver/feat-based fighter might go with human. If I were to swap back in the additional -2 INT, this distinction is highlighted (as INT helps with certain martial feats, and the additional skill point hit could make a difference).

What do you think (of this one, the old one, or both)?

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Mike: I think your variant would be interesting for certain types of campaign, but takes the half-orc too far from its PHB role for my liking. It does neatly sidestep the whole STR issue, though.

Oh, yeah. I didn't expect anyone to go for that -- it was more sort of running off on a tangent and seeing where it took me.

 

[Maximillian]

I went ahead and offered up my variant half-elf (which is still untested...) so I may as well go ahead and offer my variant half-orc. It's similar to some of the lines offered up here, but stands on its own. (Note that I changed orcs to justify these changes.)

HALF-ORC
- Medium Size
- Speed: 30ft
- Darkvision (60ft)
- Orc Blood
- Bonus Feat: Endurance
- Skill Bonus: +4 to Intimidate Checks, Intimidate is always a class skill for Half-Orcs.
- Save Bonus: +2 fortitude saves vs. Disease and Poison
- Favored Class: Barbarian

The bonus feat is a minor boost in most people's games (though in mine it serves as the gateway to a useful feat chain), but it seems appropriate to a mostly barbaric race. The skill bonus cancels out the penalty to charisma for an important skill in orc culture. The save bonus is in line with dwarves, and also rings true to me.