Revision Spotlight (6/17)

[John Crichton]

Kai Lord has finally snapped.

But he does make sense...

 

[Kai Lord]

Kai Lord has finally snapped.

Was that over the top? I can never tell....

 

[Psion]

#2 is hard on those classes with poor ref saves, and doesn't scale easily with level.

I don't particularly see why this is a problem. In fact, I don't see what the problem be with slapping base reflex saves on as a requirement. It would narrow users of the feat to those class archetypes depicted as especially nimble, but then, that's who thematically should have the feat.

 

[Psion]

And why is automatic success a problem in and of itself?

Please do read my comments on this earlier in the thread.

 

[Psion]

Well, there is a feat like that. It's called epic dodge.

That's a horse of a whole different color, my friend. By that level, you most assuredly will be fighting opponents with a flurry of powerful dangerous attacks and it is more appropriate to the power level.

At first level, where attacks and bonuses are scarce, it would be unbalancing.

 

[BryonD]

Please do read my comments on this earlier in the thread.

jasamcarl,

I don't feel that you addressed my issues. But instead of tag team I'm going to leave this in the more capable hands of Psion.

 

[John Crichton]

Was that over the top? I can never tell....

Naw, I'm all about the well reasoned meltdown. I'm due for one any week now....

 

[TiQuinn]

Until I see otherwise in a game, the problem with the change is definitely a mountain made out of a molehill.

 

[Technik4]

So, using the exact same reasoning Andy Collins has so far given us with Deflect Arrows, why not simply allow the character with Dodge to turn any one melee attack into a miss?

Sorry, this is a long thread but I understand that people here respect Wulf (hell, I do too) and I think this comment is pretty out-of-whack.

Deflect Arrows (3.0) required Dex and another feat
Reflex Save DC 20 (oh, and that went up if it was a magic arrow) to dodge 1 arrow a round.

Dodge (3.0) required Dex
+1 AC to an opponent of your choice.

I dont think anyone even thought Deflect Arrows was a feat! I mean hell, I remember using it with my 6th level monk and thinking (if I can just roll a 13 or better I may be able to dodge 1 arrow...). This was a weak class ability that was also written as a feat, albeit one that no-one in their right mind would take. When OA came out and people could exchange Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, and Improved Trip for other martial arts feats, everyone I know did.

Dodge did not have a reflex save DC 20 chance to Dodge one blow a round. The closest thing to that was Defensive Roll, a 10th level Rogue special ability, and that only worked on a potentially lethal blow.

Now I can understand why you might want Dodge to actually dodge one blow if Dodge had done that in 3.0e, or perhaps if Deflect Arrows had provided a +1 AC vs ranged attacks, but since neither of that is the case, I feel like I'm in bizzaro world.

As was pointed out, there are other things in the game that break the versimilitude of the game like ancient 20th level lich wizards (or hell, ancient wyrms) who cant scare a brigade of 1st level paladins. Deflect Arrows (3.5) is hardly a must-have feat for anyone but a monk. There are other arrow-stoppers in the game already, like Prot from Arrows, Wind Wall, etc. This is just one more, that a melee character can use.

Re Ranged vs Melee:

I believe Melee should be more powerful, intrinsically. Not because I think Melee should be the meat and potatoes of any d&d group, but because there is a hidden *cost* to being an effective Melee Combatant. Getting to your foe. While Im running up, the archer is taking full-round rapid shots. By the time I get there (lets assume Im hasted, so I take only 1 round to get there) Im already a full-round behind. Plus, the other guy drops his bow, whips out a sword and takes a full attack on me. Damn right I should do more damage than someone at range.

The above is not to say that ranged attacks should be useless, far from it. Merely balanced with regards to melee, balanced implying not as damaging or accurate, but still quite useful since you are, after all, a distance from the actual fight.

Technik

 

[Nail]

......not to say that ranged attacks should be useless, far from it. Merely balanced with regards to melee, balanced implying not as damaging or accurate, but still quite useful since you are, after all, a distance from the actual fight.

Sure, but the basis for opposition to this new feat is that a feat should not be used to balance melee vs. ranged combat. That's something that should be done within the mechanics of combat itself. Feats are separate.

Back to debating the feat:
An automatic success does seem a bit excessive. Not game breaking, by any stretch, but excessive. So is there a better mechanic to use? I've listed the options in a previous post.

IMC, and IMHO, combat should be speeded up whenever possible. That usually means reducing the number of dice rolled. (yeah, I know: some people just love 'ta roll dice!). An opposed roll is just one more thing to take care of.

Moreover, none of the opposed roll mechanics proposed scale well with those classes (monk, maybe fighter, maybe rogue) that should have the option of taking the feat.

So, if pressed, I might go with a straight AC bonus vs. missile weapons. Then raise the prereq.s to Unarmed Attack, 15 Dex, and +4 Ref save base. That way only monks and rogues could take it at low levels, and fighters would have to wait for higher levels.

Dunno. Actually, automatic looks a heck of a lot easier.