Revisiting 4th Edition

[D'karr]

Another thing I should note.
There's a shift from Magic Items being the domain of the DM to the domain of the players. We've received magic items of level X and are tasked with selecting the items. I'm not sure I like that approach...

With latter books, and item rarity, there was a shift on this back towards the DM. In my game, I've always been in control of the Magic Items, but I've also made them much more interesting than the base items.

Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium is a much more interesting book of magic items, than Adv Vault 1 & 2. YMMV.

 

[Storminator]

. . . (which begged the question why there *weren't* more magic item shops that sold all these excess magic items that all these adventuring parties didn't want)... the "wish list" gave a DM an idea of what players would actually want and actually use, and thus could populate his treasure piles accordingly (and thus cut down on the extremes of "excess treasure").
. . . many of these same players also decried the idea of the "magic item shop", but yet could never seem to adequately explain where all those +1 longswords went that all these adventuring parties found as part of generic treasure and then sold off to the blacksmith in town. THAT part of the 'narrative immersion' just sort of fell by the wayside.

Not having magic item shops in D&D breaks my immersion, because I can't think of a single other thing people haven't tried to buy or sell in the real world.

PS

 

[Balesir]

With latter books, and item rarity, there was a shift on this back towards the DM. In my game, I've always been in control of the Magic Items, but I've also made them much more interesting than the base items.

I really like the situation that the disposition and modification of magic items is a player prepogative, and I loathe the "rarity" system as both redundant and counterproductive, but the existence and definition of magic items in treasure is something that I always regard as down to the DM in the final analysis. Taking note of wish-lists and the like can be a wise move, and the concept can be helpful, but the placement is still, ultimately, a DM responsibility, IMO. What the characters do with the items after that, however, is entirely up to the players.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

4th Edition - Post Mortem

We've now finished the 4th Edition game. We played through Reavers of Harkenwold, Cairn of the Winter King, and Madness at Gardmore Abbey. My thoughts on what could very well be my last experience with 4th Edition.

1. Magic items in 4th are all wrong. Most armor, weapons, and necks have a power associated with them, thus increasing the analysis paralysis the system suffers from as a whole. Turning over magic items to the players is a mistake, it turned magic items into a chore as players (namely me) had to sift through thousands of level X items to decide who could best use the unnamed, unformed loot found.

2. Conditions are out of hand. Too many things gave minor effects, +1 to defenses, +2 to attacks against a certain target, temp HP if you stood on your hands as a minor action. Save ends, until the end of the next turn, until the start of your next turn, until applied to another target, etc. They are a book keeping nightmare and impossible to get right. They slow down combat (which doesn't need to be any slower) and most add little to the flavor of the fight.

3. The Combat Slog and Analysis Paralysis. Perhaps this was a result of playing only modules, but by the last few sessions, the general consensus was let's just get this over with. Gardmore Abbey became about completing the fights as quickly as possible to get the game over with. We averaged about 3 fights a session with these fights taking at least an hour to finish. The DM lost interest in running the game (I think his experience playing it was very different from his experience running it).

What did I like about 4th Edition? I enjoyed the character building aspect of it, it's a lot like building a magic deck. Like a magic deck, playing a character properly on the battlefield takes practice. The combat side of 4th plays well early, but rapidly spirals into a state of analysis paralysis as every player has a variety of powers, items, interrupts, and conditions to track.

The focus on combat is both 4th Edition's blessing and curse.

Next up for our intrepid gaming group: Dark Sun via 3.5 (which I'm running).

 

[Jhaelen]

Next up for our intrepid gaming group: Dark Sun via 3.5 (which I'm running).

Well, good luck with that

 

[Zardnaar]

We've now finished the 4th Edition game. We played through Reavers of Harkenwold, Cairn of the Winter King, and Madness at Gardmore Abbey. My thoughts on what could very well be my last experience with 4th Edition.

1. Magic items in 4th are all wrong. Most armor, weapons, and necks have a power associated with them, thus increasing the analysis paralysis the system suffers from as a whole. Turning over magic items to the players is a mistake, it turned magic items into a chore as players (namely me) had to sift through thousands of level X items to decide who could best use the unnamed, unformed loot found.

2. Conditions are out of hand. Too many things gave minor effects, +1 to defenses, +2 to attacks against a certain target, temp HP if you stood on your hands as a minor action. Save ends, until the end of the next turn, until the start of your next turn, until applied to another target, etc. They are a book keeping nightmare and impossible to get right. They slow down combat (which doesn't need to be any slower) and most add little to the flavor of the fight.

3. The Combat Slog and Analysis Paralysis. Perhaps this was a result of playing only modules, but by the last few sessions, the general consensus was let's just get this over with. Gardmore Abbey became about completing the fights as quickly as possible to get the game over with. We averaged about 3 fights a session with these fights taking at least an hour to finish. The DM lost interest in running the game (I think his experience playing it was very different from his experience running it).

What did I like about 4th Edition? I enjoyed the character building aspect of it, it's a lot like building a magic deck. Like a magic deck, playing a character properly on the battlefield takes practice. The combat side of 4th plays well early, but rapidly spirals into a state of analysis paralysis as every player has a variety of powers, items, interrupts, and conditions to track.

The focus on combat is both 4th Edition's blessing and curse.

Next up for our intrepid gaming group: Dark Sun via 3.5 (which I'm running).

In 3.5 I wrote my own templar class. It is kind of a favored soul variant.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Some Templars will have divine casting, but others will just be agents of Nibenay.

One thing I failed to mention about 4th is my love of the trained / untrained system of skills. Going back to skill points (and synergy) just seems messy. If I could somehow do this with 3.5 and keep PrC requirements happy, I'd do so in an instant.

I'd also love to drop the Advantage / Disadvantage system into the game.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Im sorry you burned out on 4e. I switch back and forth between 4e and pathfinder, and I find the lack of dynamic battles, and the lack of solo monsters the most frustrating going the other way. Im not DMing PF so I don't have to build Classed enemies anymore either.

Have you tried Pathfinder skill rules? It is still points per level, but class skills get +3 training bonus instead of the x4 multiplier at 1st level. They also dropped all synergies. It seems to encourage focusing on 1-3 skills and spreading the rest of your points to all class skills.

 

[Kinak]

Thanks for dropping back in to give us a post mortem.

I have to agree with you on the analysis paralysis and, especially, the round-to-round tracking. The little riders really trap you into splitting hairs between them without adding significant depth ("Is it better to use my -2 defenses attack now or make him vulnerable 5 save ends?" Does it really matter at all?)

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[S'mon]

I agree about the countless trivial mods, I try to avoid them when GMing or playing.
Definitely a bad idea to tell players "You decide what items you found". If the GM doesn't want to bother with items, or use Inherent bonuses, just give everyone +1 everything at 1st level and level it up +1 every 5 levels.