Revisiting Stat Polarity in a novel new way

[Sadrik]

Okay we have seen it and we all know what it is. In 4e, the stats are coupled together into three pairs and you only take the best one for your defense. This means you only need one high one, the other coupled stat can be dumped. You make your INT low because your DEX gives you everything and why double up your stat resources in both areas. This causes dumb or quick characters, tough or strong characters, and wise or personable characters.

So what the designers did is give three couples that are very similar. STR and CON make sense being coupled together because they could possibly make sense for the Fortitude defense, WIS and CHA because they make sense for Will and DEX and INT too.

The problem arises when the game mechanics don't conform to the expectations. Generally you think of strong or smart characters and you think of tough or quick and you even think of the wise recluse vs. the personable leader. Since the expectations are often those, would it not make sense to couple them in that way? This would form a more natural mechanical polarity to enforce those stereotypes- the mechanical fact that people dump one in the pair to boost the other.

The answer here is simple, couple the stats in a different way. One that generates the traditional stereotypes (smart or strong, tough or fast, and wise or personable). So you arrive here:

STR or INT
CON or DEX
WIS or CHA

Now you have to decide which pair is tied to what defense. WIS and CHA clearly still form the Will defense. The other two are more difficult, I would say CON and DEX is Fortitude and STR and INT is Reflexes. I would also continue AC as DEX and INT so you wind up with this:

AC = DEX or INT
Reflexes = STR or INT
Fortitude = CON or DEX
Will = WIS or CHA

So this is simply another approach, it is not necessarily better, it allows you to follow the more stereotypical placements of stats at the expense of having the defenses look a little bit more awkward than their standard formation. Note that the standard formation is not that realistic either...

 

[Garthanos]

Here is classic philosophy on it ;-)

The classic divisions of identity (Mind, Body and Soul) -- there is another psyche versus physique ... see further down.

Yes mind is largely about how well the bodies nervous system works ie how well it supports mental stuff and soul is largely about how well the mind supports emotive and social stuff but... hey its philosophy not science -- so circuitous definitions are likely ;-)

Now mix in a little science...
The two muscle types are indeed efficient (stamina - sustained movement) versus quick flexing... but muscles being able to flex quicker does not equate with precision and coordination it does indeed equate with (muscle power and burst movement)

So with real physiology you cant have the highest strength and the highest stamina... it just doesnt work that way.

Dexterity and Intelligence are elements dependent on clarity of the nervous system (which is indeed a part of body).. somebody with high intelligence and low dex has a precise nervous system but there mental emphasis is typically not necessarily on the here and now ... till an immediate stressor snaps them out of it (initiative lower).... someone with a higher dex is able to use there precise nervous system on activities that emphasize the here and now of the immediate environment... even without the stresser.

Someone with higher stamina will generally have less bulky musculature meaning better agility ie flexibility... which can impact dexterous activity but is not a determiner.

If charisma is about spirit and emphasis on the individual and wisdom is about discipline and emphasis on the group it rather makes sense you also cant have the highest charisma with the highest wisdom.

Intelligence sometimes is seen as emphasizing analysis with ones mind towards the future and wisdom as being mindful of the past... can you do both at once?
hey Dexterity could mean being mindful of the present.

The characters are already distributing points from the same pool... between mind body and soul... (reflexes, fortitude and will).

I predict 5e could have main Attributes of Mind Body and Soul (NPC's and monsters may have no further attribute distinction.

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How about the Psyche versus Physique divisions?

Wisdom as discipline and mental health -- feels like mental constitutions
Charisma as spirit and burst energy of the psyche -- feels like mental strength
Intellience as the controlling element of the psyche -- feels lile mental dexterity.

 

[Sadrik]

I think the aformentioned divisions are quite good. They simply trade the realism of character concept for the realism of applying the defenses in a more cogent way. Right now it is opposite. Character concept takes the back seat to applying the defenses in a barely "realistic" manner. Lifting heavy objects helps you ward off the effects of desease and very knowledgeable people can dodge blows better (but only in light armor), so realism is not a huge factor here. I say, since the defenses are already not that realistic at least placing them in a way that makes character design more natural with the following STR/INT, CON/DEX, and WIS/CHA.

 

[Garthanos]

One way of thinking of it...
The old Con = the new Fortitude.
The new Con = Muscle Stamina.
It never made sense for strong guys to be unhealthy... now the strongest guys have less stamina but they are still healthy -- the same trait which helps them build muscles helps them fight disease.

It doesnt work quite as nicely for
the old Dex = the new Reflexes
but it is something to consider...

The way to build the old high Intelligence and high Dexterity mage
is to build them high Intelligence -- ie they are brilliant with great reflexes
but tend to be a bit distracted and thinking about other worldly things
til they get in to the battle.

 

[Garthanos]

Reverse the Relationships gives visualizations
this also applies to other areas...

A Sorcerers strength is high because the power which makes his magic mighty also enhances his physical actions... it is not his muscles fueling his power (The strength or Dex of sorcerers is a supernatural side effect and grows as his might with magic grows.).

 

[Sadrik]

Here is another idea I have been beating around for a while:
STR = Parry (melee defense - your basic melee attack bonus +10)
DEX = Dodge (ranged defense - your AC)
CON = Fortitude
INT = Reflexes
WIS = Perception (Passive perception)
CHA = Will

 

[Garthanos]

Here is another idea I have been beating around for a while:
STR = Parry (melee defense - your basic melee attack bonus +10)
DEX = Dodge (ranged defense - your AC)
CON = Fortitude
INT = Reflexes
WIS = Perception (Passive perception)
CHA = Will

I have always kind of liked the distinction of parry versus dodge... in various other games... those games also had a passive physical defense.

D&D has attacks which target reflex which basically mean attacks which
are affected less by passive defense. Those who rely on heavy armor tend to use fewer active defenses... like parries and dodges... because they need them less?.... Those with higher strength (upper or lowerbody) do have there active defenses less impaired while using armor which also provides more passive defense.

Parries are more effective against most melee attacks... and Dodges more effective against ranged attacks.(the difference might be subtle)... some dodging is just an attempt to impair enemy targetting and not something aimed at the incoming attacks... where as most parrying is aimed at a specific attack. Dodging may be more useful against multiple attacks. Dodging is more likely to cause loss of attack opportunity..
Parrying is less impaired by heavy armor.