Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
Yes. And arguing with ignorant trolls will just get the thread shut down.
First rule of pigs- wrestle with one, and you get dirty and the pig likes it.
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Revolutions are Always Verbose: Effecting Change in the TTRPG Industry
Yes. And arguing with ignorant trolls will just get the thread shut down.
First rule of pigs- wrestle with one, and you get dirty and the pig likes it.
It is hardly that simple. Unions exist because the labor market is not particularly free. A free labor market requires that the labor force be extremely mobile, able to uproot and relocate to anywhere in the country (or world) to find work that fits their skillset. Since relocation is monetarily, emotionally, and socially very expensive, the labor market has many characteristics of price-fixing.
Basically, if folks can't afford to not take the first job they are offered, they aren't in a free labor market.
Actually, you can.
Anything that contributes to a company’s bottom line is something that can be evaluated. Just like sourcing a raw material from Brazil Vs China Vs Spain, or how much labor regulations differ in regions where you have physical operations, how top-heavy your pay structure is- and how flexible adjustments to it are- are factors in international competitive ability. The only question is how big the effect is.
To be clear, it’s not just the uppermost echelons in play here. Stratospheric compensatron packages for a company’s top tier are based on extraordinary pay for the next level down, etc. Put differently, it’s not just that American companies have some of the highest executive pay for the CEOs, CFOs, etc., it’s that the curve of their wage structures are steeper than anywhere else.
In the 1930s, American companies averaged a executive to entry-level wage ratio of @46-1. Currently, we’re between 285 to 354-1 (depending on which industries were included in the researchers’ data), worst worldwide. The other countries with similar ratios are places like India and China. In contrast, other countries with healthy economies have vastly different ratios: Germany 147-1; France 104-1; Japan 67-1. Etc.
When the recession hit the automakers hard a decade+ ago, 2 of the American Big 3 companies responded (in part) with layoffs and closing factories. Executive compensation was not reduced. In comparison, Toyota- then #2- cut salaries, even at the highest levels, even though said compensation was 1/5th to 1/10th that of their rivals. (Their CEO mentioned in an interview that he had to tell his wife about what amenities- like the gardening service- would have to be scaled back or eliminated.) They did NOT reduce their physical plant or labor force in any major way. They’re currently #1.
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Toyota has the benefit of having developed an ethos that others merely copy, usually incompletely.
There’s all kinds of moving pieces to the reasons behind any given company’s successes…or lack thereof. And that’s one of them.
My Dad’s business- a small medical practice- had maybe a couple dozen employees over 38 years before he sold it. Outside of family, he had 3 employees who worked for him between 20-30 years, and several hit a decade. That is phenomenally low turnover, which has all kinds of benefits to the bottom line. He’s trying to teach his way to his current employers- the partnership that he sold out to. (It’s a work in progress.)
aramis erak
Legend
in some places, it's set by law... My mother still complains about 1960's W. Germany and the mandatory gratuity... (Landstuhl and Frankfurt (sp?) areas)
Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
So since the issue seems to be allowed by the mods (?), here's the basic gist-
In some countries there is no gratuity. At all. Service industry workers are paid the same as others.
In other countries there is a mandatory gratuity added to the bill by law. However, depending on the country, it can be customary to leave a small amount (5-10%) or an American amount (15%+) on a bill in addition to the already charged mandatory gratuity. Whether this is for exceptional service (some countries in Europe) or is considered customary (Dubai, for example), depends on the country.
In America, employees in tipped positions (such as wait staff in restaurants) are paid below the minimum wage with the assumption that they will make the remainder money up from tips. So, take a state like Alabama- in that state, the hourly wage for a server is ... $2.13. And remember that most service industry workers are not getting any benefits.
The reason for this is because, in America, tipping is customary. And the amounts are also customary and have increased- you know what the custom is, because many places (especially in tourist areas, but increasingly everywhere) put it on your receipt. And I have never, ever, in my life seen any amount below 15%. In fact, it is increasingly rare to see 15% as an option. I have seen 20, 22, and 25 in many places. Square (which is a common POS option) allows tip amounts of 15%, 20%, or 25% as the defaults- notice that you can't "default" below 15%- you'd have to affirmatively opt out.
In addition, given that restaurants and servers have encountered ingrates (sorry, clever people) before, it is standard practice to include a minimum gratuity of at least 18% on parties of 6 or more, so you don't have people exercising their cleverness and screwing over the wait staff.
All this said, it points to the role of custom in our society. To use a banal analogy- if you go to a concert, you expect that the band will "end" their show, and then (LIKE MAGIC!) they crowd will make a lot of noise, and the band will be summoned back to do an encore, because the crowd is so great. We all know it's a big put on- the band has a set list, and the encore is on it already. But it's part of the show, and it's part of the social compact. It's the custom. And it's the same with tips; in America, it is now the expectation that a meal out will include a 20% gratuity- and many people (such as myself) will pay 25-30%, because we understand how the service industry works, and we appreciate their labor.
Some people choose not to do it. It's possible because, in this atomized society, tipping is done last. If you aren't going to eat at that restaurant again, or have the same server ... well, why not stiff them? Why not just write in the tip area, "Hey, here's a tip- get a better job!"*
....then again, to channel Fight Club, if you are a member of the .... 10%, I wouldn't go back to that place after I left that tip. And I sure wouldn't order the clam chowder.
Moving it back to my OP and RPGs
I originally wrote this:
First is the idea that we all care, in the abstract, about how companies treat their employees. But in reality, we don't act upon that- but we will act upon consumer-facing issues. I call this the Amazon Paradox. Let me make this more explicit-
As a general rule, most people will say that they want companies to do the right thing- have employees (not independent contractors) that are paid well, treated well, with decent vacations and generous benefits and the ability to retire at some time. But given the choice, they'll just go on Amazon and pay the lowest price they see for a non-sketchy product.
I wrote that to be nice. Because as we have seen in this thread ... it's not true that "we all care ... about how companies treat their employees." There is a small subset of people that are quite happy to screw over anyone and everyone if they can save a penny, and would probably raid the "take a penny, leave a penny" container at the local Mom & Pop store** if they ever shopped there- but they are proud Wal Mart shoppers.
But I don't think that's the majority of people. I still feel (despite some evidence to the contrary) that the majority of people are good- that they want people to be treated as they, themselves, would want to be treated.
So when I saw the post by @Mongoose_Matt I had to ask- I think that he is asking the wrong questions. It's not really an issue of "In the great social strata, where should/could RPG creators sit?" I mean- market forces are about the efficient allocation of resources. It's rarely productive to think about how much a given profession should make- we know, empirically, that CEOs are paid way too much in America (the high compensation is not correlated to performance, and is the product of interlocking boards with misaligned incentives- moreover, there is a huge supply in the labor pool); weirdly, we also know that the top professional athletes are also paid too little (the allowed collusion between owners artificially lowers the amount of money going to them while simultaneously allowed owners to extract excess profits).
What is more interesting, and the reason I originally wrote the OP, was because I was thinking about the inclusivity issues. When you have an industry that has barriers to entry (TTRPGs require a fair amount of erudition and learning) and also is often treated as a part-time, hobbyist industry, it tends to attract certain types of people- those that can, largely, afford to already participate in the workforce.
It's the "intern problem." If you aren't familiar with it, I addressed it here-
Revolutions are Always Verbose: Effecting Change in the TTRPG Industry
....interestingly enough, companies (such as Hasbro) are able to leverage the existing model that the rest of the industry uses to exact excess profits from D&D. In other words, and I am quite sure you know this- Hasbro, despite having an incredibly profitable and successful brand both in and...
www.enworld.org
TLDR- using unpaid internships as a barrier to entry means that certain jobs are reserved for the already wealthy. Here, the issue is similar- when there are positions that allow for a decent wage and a decent life in the TTRPG industry (like any other industry) ... not "Aston Martin" rich, but a good life, then it will attract a workforce that is more diverse, simply from the perspective that you don't have to rely on people that can afford to treat it as a lark or a hobby.
But in order to do that, you need to appeal to consumers who are interested in supporting a thriving industry. You need to change the norms and customs around it. You need to appeal to the "20%+" people, and not the "10% or less" (who would likely pirate their books anyway, because they don't value the labor that goes into it.)
*I knew a person who did that, or similar bon mots. No, they are no longer in my circle of people.
**IT SAID TO TAKE A PENNY! SO I TOOK THEM ALL! IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT MINE!!!!!!!! Stupid mom & pop deserved to have their pennies taken, because they aren't smart, like me.
slobster
Hero
I agree with your entire take on this issue, though I will note that in California, where I live, minimum wage for servers is in fact the same as minimum wage for anyone else, between $13 and $17 depending on area and how large the employer is.
I still try to tip between 18%-20% typically, assuming the service was good, because it's hard to live in my area on $13 an hour and I've been that server (actually back of the house, but still), I remember how hard it is to work with people who sometimes treat you like trash, and because it would be very rude for me to pretend the social tipping contract doesn't exist to justify wanting to save $4 on my meal.
In my ideal world, I think I'd rather restaurants just raise their prices 18% and take the stress out of tipping, but I mean that's just not the world we live in and so I'd rather be slightly nervous and worried about my tipping amounts when I go out to eat than be a jerkhole to a human being who is just trying to make a living.
Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
Agreed on everything you wrote- a structural change (so that employees would have benefits and a living wage, instead of tipped amounts depending on the whim of individuals) would be best. But that's not our world.
I prefer the socially-set amount (20-30%) of restaurants to the uncertain amounts you get in other situations; valets, housekeeping, subcontractors doing certain house repairs ... there are so many social situations where the amount you tip (or sometimes if you tip) is uncertain, and can be stressful.
On the other hand, I have learned the value of a good tip. For example, if you are planning on staying a while, an immediate tip of a $20 to the bartender does wonders.
The older I get, the less I like unpaid internships. They really are for the upper echelons only. (I say that as someone in the upper echelons.)So since the issue seems to be allowed by the mods (?), here's the basic gist-
In some countries there is no gratuity. At all. Service industry workers are paid the same as others.
In other countries there is a mandatory gratuity added to the bill by law. However, depending on the country, it can be customary to leave a small amount (5-10%) or an American amount (15%+) on a bill in addition to the already charged mandatory gratuity. Whether this is for exceptional service (some countries in Europe) or is considered customary (Dubai, for example), depends on the country.
In America, employees in tipped positions (such as wait staff in restaurants) are paid below the minimum wage with the assumption that they will make the remainder money up from tips. So, take a state like Alabama- in that state, the hourly wage for a server is ... $2.13. And remember that most service industry workers are not getting any benefits.
The reason for this is because, in America, tipping is customary. And the amounts are also customary and have increased- you know what the custom is, because many places (especially in tourist areas, but increasingly everywhere) put it on your receipt. And I have never, ever, in my life seen any amount below 15%. In fact, it is increasingly rare to see 15% as an option. I have seen 20, 22, and 25 in many places. Square (which is a common POS option) allows tip amounts of 15%, 20%, or 25% as the defaults- notice that you can't "default" below 15%- you'd have to affirmatively opt out.
In addition, given that restaurants and servers have encountered ingrates (sorry, clever people) before, it is standard practice to include a minimum gratuity of at least 18% on parties of 6 or more, so you don't have people exercising their cleverness and screwing over the wait staff.
All this said, it points to the role of custom in our society. To use a banal analogy- if you go to a concert, you expect that the band will "end" their show, and then (LIKE MAGIC!) they crowd will make a lot of noise, and the band will be summoned back to do an encore, because the crowd is so great. We all know it's a big put on- the band has a set list, and the encore is on it already. But it's part of the show, and it's part of the social compact. It's the custom. And it's the same with tips; in America, it is now the expectation that a meal out will include a 20% gratuity- and many people (such as myself) will pay 25-30%, because we understand how the service industry works, and we appreciate their labor.
Some people choose not to do it. It's possible because, in this atomized society, tipping is done last. If you aren't going to eat at that restaurant again, or have the same server ... well, why not stiff them? Why not just write in the tip area, "Hey, here's a tip- get a better job!"*
....then again, to channel Fight Club, if you are a member of the .... 10%, I wouldn't go back to that place after I left that tip. And I sure wouldn't order the clam chowder.
Moving it back to my OP and RPGs
I originally wrote this:
First is the idea that we all care, in the abstract, about how companies treat their employees. But in reality, we don't act upon that- but we will act upon consumer-facing issues. I call this the Amazon Paradox. Let me make this more explicit-
As a general rule, most people will say that they want companies to do the right thing- have employees (not independent contractors) that are paid well, treated well, with decent vacations and generous benefits and the ability to retire at some time. But given the choice, they'll just go on Amazon and pay the lowest price they see for a non-sketchy product.
I wrote that to be nice. Because as we have seen in this thread ... it's not true that "we all care ... about how companies treat their employees." There is a small subset of people that are quite happy to screw over anyone and everyone if they can save a penny, and would probably raid the "take a penny, leave a penny" container at the local Mom & Pop store** if they ever shopped there- but they are proud Wal Mart shoppers.
But I don't think that's the majority of people. I still feel (despite some evidence to the contrary) that the majority of people are good- that they want people to be treated as they, themselves, would want to be treated.
So when I saw the post by @Mongoose_Matt I had to ask- I think that he is asking the wrong questions. It's not really an issue of "In the great social strata, where should/could RPG creators sit?" I mean- market forces are about the efficient allocation of resources. It's rarely productive to think about how much a given profession should make- we know, empirically, that CEOs are paid way too much in America (the high compensation is not correlated to performance, and is the product of interlocking boards with misaligned incentives- moreover, there is a huge supply in the labor pool); weirdly, we also know that the top professional athletes are also paid too little (the allowed collusion between owners artificially lowers the amount of money going to them while simultaneously allowed owners to extract excess profits).
What is more interesting, and the reason I originally wrote the OP, was because I was thinking about the inclusivity issues. When you have an industry that has barriers to entry (TTRPGs require a fair amount of erudition and learning) and also is often treated as a part-time, hobbyist industry, it tends to attract certain types of people- those that can, largely, afford to already participate in the workforce.
It's the "intern problem." If you aren't familiar with it, I addressed it here-
Revolutions are Always Verbose: Effecting Change in the TTRPG Industry
....interestingly enough, companies (such as Hasbro) are able to leverage the existing model that the rest of the industry uses to exact excess profits from D&D. In other words, and I am quite sure you know this- Hasbro, despite having an incredibly profitable and successful brand both in and...
TLDR- using unpaid internships as a barrier to entry means that certain jobs are reserved for the already wealthy. Here, the issue is similar- when there are positions that allow for a decent wage and a decent life in the TTRPG industry (like any other industry) ... not "Aston Martin" rich, but a good life, then it will attract a workforce that is more diverse, simply from the perspective that you don't have to rely on people that can afford to treat it as a lark or a hobby.
But in order to do that, you need to appeal to consumers who are interested in supporting a thriving industry. You need to change the norms and customs around it. You need to appeal to the "20%+" people, and not the "10% or less" (who would likely pirate their books anyway, because they don't value the labor that goes into it.)
*I knew a person who did that, or similar bon mots. No, they are no longer in my circle of people.
**IT SAID TO TAKE A PENNY! SO I TOOK THEM ALL! IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT MINE!!!!!!!! Stupid mom & pop deserved to have their pennies taken, because they aren't smart, like me.
As for your last paragraph, the worst example I ever saw of that was on a trip to Italy, in a church in Assisi. There was a small table operated by the Poor Claires offering prayer cards and votive candles, the cost being “for a donation”. IOW, you gave what you could, on your honor. A man and his wife from another tour bus pushed through the crowd that had gathered around it, each grabbing up as many of the cards and votive candles as they could with both hands and left without leaving any donations at all, nearly clearing the table while the nun watched speechlessly.* Many were angered by this, and more than a few people came close to grabbing the couple And dragging them back on her behalf. We were that close to a lynching in the church…
Fortunately, one of my traveling companions- a woman of formidable physical presence and social stature (former cop, current judge)- found a better way- she dropped a bunch of euros on the table (yes, while giving the stinkeye to the candle-clutching couple). Others followed suit.
Someone else let their tour guide know what happened. When we left, there was an intense discussion occurring next to their bus.
* I do not recall if they have a vow of silence.
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