Reworking weapons... need some input.

[mirivor]

Alrighty... I have, through a ridiculous amount of playing time, decided that the weapons in the game are not created equal... by any means. I know that some of you may criticize this, as the weapons have a seemingly tiny impact on the game, but I am a rules freak and balance lawyer. Sue me It seemeth to me that a certain few of the weapons in the game get all of the glory, whilest the others remain lost in the dusty pit of forgotten gaming material.

So, given that situation, I have decided to rework the weapons for my homebrew campaign. My basis for the changes typically come from a similar weapon that I feel is just about right. This may get long-winded and convoluted, so I apologize in advance. My ideas are not quite in-line yet and that is where I hope to tap into many of your thoughts.

My main goal is to make all weapons just about equal with respect to other weapons in their classes. For instance: One glaring error that I have seen is the greatsword. I know, I know... The greatsword??!! One of the relics of D&D and he wants to nerf it??!! Well I do. Here is why:
Starting with the dagger and progressing up to the longsword, we have a nice steady progression of damage and ability. To demonstrate:

Dagger, Simple, Light, 1D4 damage, 20 Ft range, 19-20/x2 crit.
Shortsword, Martial, Light, 1D6 damage, 19-20/x2 crit
Longsword, Martial, 1 handed, 1D8 damage, 19-20/x2 crit

That progression is beautiful. It is even, steady, and you don't see any huge jumps. For you math wizzes, each weapon deals, on average, and additional 1 point of damage per successful swing. (NOTE: the dagger nearly breaks the system. It has a good crit, range attack, and two types of damage. I am on the verge of nerfing it to a 20 crit.)

Now let me add the almighty Greatsword.

Greatsword, martial, 2 handed, 2D6 damage, 19-20/x2 crit

The problem here is the HUGE jump in damage from the longsword. The longsword averages 4.5 damage on each swing. The Greatsword averages 7.0. It doesn't sound like a lot, but compared to the 1 point jumps in average on all blades before it, it is MASSIVE! Now you are thinking, "but it is two-handed and heavy, it is supposed to do a lot of damage!". I agree with that, but there are numerous other rules in place that already allow that to happen. Power Attack's huge bonus to 2-handed weapons and the strength bonus to them more than make them damage dealing machines without the help of extra damage dice. My thoughts: Make the bastard sword the standard two-handed weapon. It makes perfect sense as those who want to fight with 2 hands may do so, and those willing to burn a feat cna wield it with one hand and forgo the larger damage capability. This would eliminate the need for the greatsword entirely.

I would alter or move the majority of the simple and martial weapons in this manner. The axes would look very similar to the swords, with the dwarven waraxe replacing the out-of-whack great axe as the two hander of choice. Like so:

Throwing axe
Handaxe
Battleaxe
Dwarven Waraxe

Hammer
Warhammer
Maul

Shortspear
Longspear
Spear

Note that in each category, you are able to select form a simple, light, 1 handed, and 2 handed weapon, with the two-handed weapon typically being able to be wielded exotically for some special benefit, if the character desires.

In each case, I have selected a standard weapon that I think has a good solid foundation. I use that to alter or get rid of other weapons. For instance, if a weapon is simple, it usually sacrifices one of the following aspects: crit range, damage die, or crit multiplier. Most of the simple weapons in the game have a 20/x2 crit and lower damage than their martial cousins. Upgrading to martial gives you a benefit in one of the aforementioned aspects. The longspear vs. the Glaive is a good example. I lowered the longspears crit to x2, because the glaive's is x3. Exact same weapon practically, but the martial weapon should be stronger.

Gosh, what a mess.... just leave a note if you understand this jumble. I hope to be able to provide a posted list of my weapons so that all of you who read this might better understand what I am trying to do.

 

[CR2000]

Whaa......WOW, finally someone who took my gripe with weapons and verbalized it! This is great i'll have to start adjusting. Oh, how do gargantuan scythes fit into this? hehehehehe

 

[Cheiromancer]

One thing you want to keep in mind is prices. Adventurers will get the best weapon available, but the local militia might use something almost as good but much cheaper. If different weapons have different craft DCs, that will also be a factor; orcs will make weapons that can be crafted quickly and cheaply, even if they aren't the absolute best.

Another thing is that suboptimal weapons can be the subject of feats and prestige classes that make them actually worthwhile (even considering the cost of the feat). It would be a shame if that were lost in a complete overhaul.

Third, some weapons are useful in peculiar circumstances. Underwater you need to use piercing weapons. In close quarters you can't swing a greataxe. Weapons that are easily hidden (or disguised as farm implements) are needed for clandestine missions. And so on; weapons that are otherwise suboptimal might shine in the right context.

Finally, not all weapons are created equal. It adds a feeling of realism that some things are just plain better, all things considered, than others. Too much mathematical balance can actually suck a bit of life out of the game.

All that being said, I am interested in seeing the details of your overhaul.

 

[mirivor]

Cheiromancer, your points are all valid and ackowledged. Allow me to address each in turn:

Prices: This is to some extent true. However my beef begins when adventures pay an extra 1 or 2 hundred GP to gain a rather large and permanent benefit. I am at work and cannot think of specific examples, but I know that there are some weapons that are GROSSLY outshined by their more expensive relatives. I do not feel that this should be the case...masterwork weapons are the expensive, better versions of the various PHB weapons.
As for the crafting quickly idea, I completely agree. That is why orcs are commonly found wielding simple spears and maces. These simple weapons are cheap and easy to craft.

Feats and PrCs: I am eliminating nearly all of the PrC's from my game and creating entire new ones. I feel that PrC's have not followed their intended path of flavor and strayed down the road of super-duper-ultra power gaming at its finest. Feats I agree with, however don't forget that there are also feats to vastly improve the over-the-top weapons as well.

Versatility: I have not ignored this component while designing my weapons chart. It would be easier to explain with it, but for now let me say that weapons which give characters a choice of damage types, a short range increment, or a bonus to an ability such as trip all have that taken into account in my plans. The dagger is a good example of an incredibily versatile weapon. Good crit, range, and choice of damage, which is why it should probably be a martial weapon as opposed to a simple one.

Your last point is my greatest fear. I definitely do not want to suck any life out of my favorite game. But I think that nerfing the weapons is a nice easy way to tone down certain parts of the game and allow emphasis on others. The common "2-handed weapon vs two weapon fighting" act that one frequently sees here is a good example of that kind of thing.

For any taking an interest in this idea, stay tuned over the next few days for progress reports and ideas. I appreciate any and all constructive criticisms and inputs.

Later!

 

[Sledge]

Greatswords do still take two hands? That second hand is certainly worth a point or so of damage. I fear your plan will come to one conclusion, sword and board/twf become the ultimate weapons. There will never be a reason to ever use a two handed weapon.

 

[mirivor]

Sledge, I am going to take the liberty of disagreeing with you. The "extra point of damage" (or extra 2, 3, 4, 5, or more, with proper strength) that a greatsword wielder gets comes from his strength and a half bonus. I do not think that he should get both... then you toss on Power Attack *SHUDDER*... The dual wielder, poor bastard, needs a 15 dex to even START up his feat tree and it only gets worse. He ultimately, to become a master of his craft, must acquire a 19 Dexterity, spend 6 feats (at least, if you include two-weapon defense), and most likely suffers from a low strength score. Meanwhile, the juggernaut two-hander doesn't need squat for dex, so he is busy pumping everything that he has into strength. This in turn raises damage and attack bonuses ever higher, which in turn allows for more points to be devoted to Power Attack, which in turn adds up to even more damage. This is a viscious cycle. I am in a campaign now where this has happened. I can attest to the vast difference between effectiveness in combat concerning the two archetypes, as I DM the group. Some of my players are regretting their choice of class now, because the two-handers are outshining everyone else by a mile. Surely this cannot be the result of a mere "extra point". I realize that my changes won't make much difference, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and I will be making some other changes as well, such as making the 2 weapon tree a little more reasonable.

More later today. Later!

 

[italianranma]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the damage progression from dagger to greatsword.

Remember, you could be using that other hand. I think that your biggest beef is with Power Attack. The feat is insanely good, and there is really no other way for a melee fighter to come close in damage dealing potential. That being said, I don't think you need to nerf power attack, but rather give other options to your players.

There are really only three styles of combat that most characters fall into (assuming that they use manufactured weapons): Two-handed weapon, Two-weapons, and Sword and Board.

We've got the three feats most commonly associated with those three styles, respectively: Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, and Combat Expertise.

You may disagree with me about Combat Expertise, there are many sword and board users who aren't smart enough to take that feat. But I think that that feat best complements shield users because it's the easiest way to add to your AC. I'd think that someone who's sacrificed the damage dealing capabilites of the other two has done so because they care more about their AC than the amount of damage they can do. Or they just don't have the stats to pull off the other styles. But then again if they don't have the stats for combat, then they should consider a different profession than fighter.

Of those three feats, Power attack is the best: it's power/usefulness progresses with your level, and it has an extra helping of effectiveness for Two-handed weilders. Two-weapon fighting comes in a close second. I wouldn't dismiss the power of fighting with two-weapons, for a mere -2 penelty, you get a whole extra attack. How many times have you blown your attack roll with a 3? Just try it again. Later when you have 2 magic weapons of exceptional value the two-weapon fighting route really shines. I will admit that it's not as useful because you must take a full-round action to gain benefit, and you can't use it during a charge.

Combat Expertise on the other hand is a distant third. Sure it's the pre-req for improved trip/disarm/etc. but it's usefulness caps after level 5, and you have to purchase another feat for it to continue scaling. Second you don't get an added benefit from it when using a shield. And finally you must be attacking someone to gain benefit from it (how redicules is it that I can gain a +5 dodge bonus against all attacks if I'm actively attacking, yet only a +4 if I'm using the 'total defense' option.

I propose that you change combat expertise to better match up with Power Attack. Here is my reversion:

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as your base attack bonus on your attack roll and add the same number as a dodge bonus to your Defense against opponents that you threaten. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special: If equipped with a shield you may double the bonus to Defense from this feat. You may not gain this benefit the same round that you attack with a shield. A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[mirivor]

Italianranma: You are correct about power attack. It is very good... too good. I have nearly altered it several times. I also love your idea about combat expertise... using a shield could make one nearly unhittable.

The greatsword is not my only beef with weapons. I only used it because it is a common weapon that nearly all, if not all, players are familiar with. Some other weapons that are really out of whack include the Jovar (extra gold for increased crit range), the Goliath Greathammer (Don't even get me started.... this weapon is just stupid), and the remainder of the splatbook weapons in general. The main crux is that each book was written by different people who, it seems, didn't take the time to compare their unholy creations to other weapons presented in the core books. I would like to be able to present my players with a nice, comprehensive list of the weapons that I will allow in my campaign and, when they glance down the list their first thought is, " Cool, these weapons are fairly balanced. I can select weapon x and still be the equal of another with weapon y." This not only helps fix the 2-handed damage issue that I personally nurse, but gives players more freedom to choose weapons for flavor without worrying about straight-up efficiency.

My primary list is nearing completion. To give all of you a better understanding of what I am trying to accomplish, here are a few tidbits detailing what I have done:

Some of the main weapon groups include Mace, Axe, Sword, and Polearm. I have deliniated these so that each of the first 3 categories include a light, 1 handed, 2-handed, and ranged version. So, for instance, we have in the Axe category the Handaxe, Battleaxe, Dwarven Waraxe, and finally the trhowing axe for ranged. These weapons are all martial, and as such receive a x3 crit mod. The exception is the throwing axe, which gets it's mod reduced to x2 in exchange for being a ranged weapon.

Simple weapons, with only the crossbows as an exception, receive a x2 crit and a 20 range. This is the drawback to simple weapons and, in a sense, demonstrates their ease of use. I even reduced the spear class crits for this purpose (in addition to making the martial polearms better. Let's face it, they should be.), as well as moved the dagger to martial, though I will allow all classes originally proficient in it to remain so. (The dagger, by the way, is awesome. Why would a weapon with extended crit range, two types of damage, and a range increment EVER be SIMPLE??) You may also realize that I have extended some weapons to give the Simple category a few more options. A few more two-handed weapons to choose from, in particular.

If you look at the chart, you will notice that I tried to classify weapons by their abilities. Flails, for instance, are martial yet remain a x2 crit. This is because I classified them as "tactical", specialist weapons that grant a bonus to some tactical move, trip and disarm in this case, and that are superceded by some other weapon in the category of raw damage. Nearly every other martial weapon has a larger crit range or multiplier than its counterpart simple one, or they possess some other tactical ability. I have also tried to factor in Reach, Range Increment if any, Multiple types of damage, etc.

I have also tried to give each class of weapon all 3 damage types, to give versatility to all characters as far as outfitting with weapons.

Ye Alde Weapons Chart
Simple Weapons Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Increment Weight Type
Unarmed Attacks
Gauntlet 2 gp 1d2 1d3 x2 - 1 lb. B
Unarmed Strike - 1d2 1d3 x2 - - B
Light Melee Weapons
Gauntlet, Spiked 5 gp 1d3 1d4 x2 - 1 lb. P
Mace, Light 5 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 - 4 lb. B
Sickle, Light 6 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 - 2 lb. S
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Club - 1d4 1d6 x2 10 ft. 3 lb. B
Mace 12 gp 1d6 1d8 x2 - 8 lb. B
Shortspear 1 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 20 ft. 3 lb. P
Sickle 12 gp 1d6 1d8 x2 - 4 lb. S
Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Longspear 5 gp 1d6 1d8 x2 - 9 lb. P
Mace, Heavy 26 gp 1d8 1d10 x2 - 12 lb. B
Quarterstaff - 1d4/1d4 1d6/1d6 x2 - 4 lb. B
Sickle, Heavy 18 gp 1d8 1d10 x2 - 8 lb. S
Spear 2 gp 1d6 1d8 x2 20 ft. 6 lb. P
Ranged Weapons
Crossbow, Heavy 50 gp 1d8 1d10 19-20/x2 120 ft. 8 lb. P
Crossbow, Light 35 gp 1d6 1d8 19-20/x2 80 ft. 4 lb. P
Dart 5 sp 1d3 1d4 x2 20 ft. ½ lb. P
Javelin 1 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 30 ft. 2 lb. P
Sling - 1d3 1d4 x2 50 ft. - B

Martial Weapons Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Increment Weight Type
Light Melee Weapons
Dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 19-20/x2 10 ft. 1 lb. P or S
Flail, Light 4 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 3 lb. B
Hammer 6 gp 1d4 1d6 x3 - 3 lb. B
Handaxe 6 gp 1d4 1d6 x3 - 3 lb. S
Pick, Light 4 gp 1d4 1d6 x3 - 3 lb. P
Sap 1 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 - 2 lb. B
Shortsword 10 gp 1d4 1d6 19-20/x2 - 2 lb. P
Shield, Light - 1d2 1d3 x2 - - B
Spiked Armor - 1d4 1d6 x2 - - P
Spiked Shield, Light - 1d3 1d4 x2 - - P
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Battleaxe 10 gp 1d6 1d8 x3 - 6 lb. S

Sorry about the columns messing up... don't know why it does that. Hopefully this will give a better idea about what I am trying to accomplish. I really appreciate the input and hope to hear from more people. Later!

 

[Sadrik]

Your thread gave me the inspiration to post my weapon list (on another thread). It shores up some of your complaints. Like the waraxe and bastard sword become the baseline two handed weapons while the truely huge two handed weapons you need a feat to use without the non-proficiency penalty.

 

[mirivor]

Sadrik: That is precisely what I did with the bastard sword and Waraxe. They became the default two-handed weapons for their respective classes. Fighters and other classes willing to devote the extra feat may still use them in one hand, but those wanting the 2-handed character do not need to take anything. Could you post a link to your thread? Maybe I can pirate some ideas

This also demonstrates to some extent the two races' primary attribute:

The bastard sword is, in my opinion, one of the most versatile weapons in the game, one-handed, two-handed, good damage, good crit range. It is a beautiful weapon whose abilities are somewhat offset by the need to take a feat to use it 1 handed. Versatile and adaptable, like a human.

The Dwarven waraxe is so... dwarven. Hits hard and exemplifies war with an axe. It is hard to put into words.