Rhemoraz CR7?

[IceBear]

Boy, I can't believe we're both trying to do the same thing but having such a problem with it I said that I look at ALL the factors - Intelligence, skills and environment to decide the DC. It's the environmental factors that make the difference to me - see the aboleth example above. If I REALLY have a hard time deciding the DC, I might even use the Hide check as a base for the DC, but it wouldn't just be the roll. If you would adjust the checks based on environment, you would have to pick those numbers out of the air so it's not really any different than what I said.

If there was a lair of goblins (Hide +6) on the other side of the door and you used a straight Hide vs Spot then the PCs would have a harder time noticing the goblins spoor than they would if a military encampment of hobgoblins (Hide +1) which are probably doing their best to cover up their spoor. (The descriptions of the two monsters show that the hobgoblins are more organized and tactically minded, so it would make sense that they were better at hiding the signs of their presence. The goblins are smaller and sneakier so INDIVIDUALLY they would be better at hiding than the hobgoblons) If it was just trying to spot the goblin hiding behind a tree compared to a hobgoblin, this would be fine, but I don't think it works here. This is another reason why I don't think *just* using opposed Spot vs Hide checks works when you don't have line of sight or to find signs of something's presence.

Anyway, 99% of the time I do use a straight Spot vs Hide check because situations where you don't have possible line of sight to the hiding creature are rare. I'm just trying to show you that I *do* take the MM entry into consideration and don't just pull numbers out of the air

IceBear

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Thanks for the info on swallow whole petrosion, I must of missed where you said it was in the faq.

 

[Macbrea]

Hmm, maybe I am missing something here. But how is it spot vs hide on a goblin behind a door, justified?


This almost makes sense except when it comes into the exact same scene with similar effects.



Players enter a room. Behind the door is the dead body of the goblin. What is their chance of figuring it is there? Spot vs the Dead goblins hide skill? Listen vs the Flies move silently? Or do they just have to wait to open the door? My guess is the door probably blocks line of effect for spot. As you have to guess whats on the other side because its 100% concealment.

Just because the goblin is alive he shouldn't be using his hide skill when there is no chance of seeing him. Spot is the chance of noticing things out of the ordinary or if someone is hiding within your area. The goblin isn't hiding.....he simply has 100% concealment and therefor you would have to guess he is there. And I guess a player could walk about guessing there is an orc in the closet, a goblin in that jar, a black dragon under his bed.

 

[Belares]

Players enter a room. Behind the door is the dead body of the goblin. What is their chance of figuring it is there? Spot vs the Dead goblins hide skill? Listen vs the Flies move silently? Or do they just have to wait to open the door? My guess is the door probably blocks line of effect for spot. As you have to guess whats on the other side because its 100% concealment.

First off spot is not just the sense of sight! You could smell the goblin or see the pool of blood coming from under door.

Spot is all senses except hearing (which you are using as a listen roll). Unless of course you say hey i want everyone to put points in spot(smell), spot(see), spot(feel). you get the picture.

 

[Macbrea]

But there is just no way to spot the dead goblin behind the door. You have to open it!

I guess spot DC could be set at 20 to detect the goblin behind the door because he is effectively invisible. But that is a static DC instead of a hide vs spot check because there is about the same chance of detecting the dead goblin as there is detecting the live one.

 

[Belares]

The dead goblin makes no noise but a live one does (they have to breathe unless they hold there breath) what if it is cold and you see steam coming from behind the door like as in breath? I agree that you CANT know what is behind the door but you can detremine that something is behind the door.

 

[Petrosian]

to use a spot check to find something with complete concealment i would think the normal spot vs hide relative rolls with the same +20 result required for spotting invisible would be appropriate.

So when opposed wilderness lore rolls were inappropriate, goblin behind wall, the spot/hide would do under those circumstances. This would result in a really lax untrained goblin being noticed by an orbservant guy on occasion.

again...

YMMV

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, but the +20 circumstance modifier for spotting invisible creatures assumes a line of sight to the creature (so you could see the swirling of the air, footprints in the dust, etc).

At this point I'm tired of arguing. You would use the Hide skill and assign a modifier of your determination for the situation. Me, I would just assign a number based on my determination of the situation including how good the creature is at hiding and have the PCs try to spot - so we're both getting to the same result.

It was suggested by someone from WotC to use the AC modifier for cover as a circumstance modifier to spot. 100% cover has a dash for the modifier as it's impossible to hit someone with 100% cover. Likewise I'd rule it's impossible to Spot someone (but not impossible to spot other signs of their presence).

As to the person that said Spot is not just vision, where are you getting that from. Does it list bonuses to spot due to strong smells? Penalties to spot for being upwind? Spot is the ability to see something of importance. Scent is used for detection by smell, and Listen for detection by sound.

IceBear