Rhemoraz CR7?

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I read it to mean that you have to bite attack/grab first just to allow a chance to swallow the next time. Gives the poor sap a chance for the monster to die or something, because beating the grapple check is going to be tough.


It also mean you get one action of your own before you become stir fry.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

1-Wilderness Lore : This could tell you that a Rhemoraz lives in the area. Look at it this way; any farmer can detect the presence of moles in a given area. Just how hard do you think it would be to notice that a 20 feet long burrower lives in the area? It would leave marks all over the place!

2-The surprise round occurs when the beasts suddenly make an action that reveal it presence.

If an assassin stalks you, he'll make move silently/hide check as he moves nearer to you. The surprise round will be most likely be his sudden attack. If no one succeeded at a listen/spot check, the assassin will be the only one to act during the surprise round. If a PC successfully made the check, that person would get to act during the surprise round, possibly before the assassin.

Same thing here. The surprise round shouldn't begin when the Rhemoraz starts moving, it begins when it surfaces. The listen check is made while the Rhemoraz is moving toward the surface. If nobody heard the Rhemoraz, it can freely snatch someone. If some PCs heard it, they get to act during the surprise round, either before or after the Rhemoraz depending on their initiative.

It seems simple enough to me.

 

[IceBear]

Yes, but if that movement towards the surface was a partial charge (and thus an attack) that WOULD be the start of the surprise round, and thus I wouldn't allow the Listen check. In the surprise round you are limited to partial actions. If in your example, the assassin got within 30ft without being noticed and then made a partial charge, that, to me is the start of the surprise round. So, would you give the victim a Listen check to avoid being surprised? If so, and he makes his check the surprise round just got "voided" which makes the assassin's partial charge invalid. Thus, I wouldn't allow a Listen check in that case.

So, with the ice worm example, if it was 20ft underground and then decided to burrow upwards and attack I would rule that anyone that hadn't detected it before then was surprised. Now, if it can't make a partial charge via burrowing (and I'm tending that way), then I completely agree with you. When it burrows towards the surface listen checks to notice it. If you fail to notice it (and it came up behind you) then the next round it could attack with surprise.

IceBear

 

[Victim]

Making the listen check wouldn't really negate the surprise round, it just gives the character the chance to act in it.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Yes, but if that movement towards the surface was a partial charge (and thus an attack) that WOULD be the start of the surprise round, and thus I wouldn't allow the Listen check.

Okay, some thoughts.

1-Gameplay consideration.

Let's assume the PCs happen to walk over the exact spot that allows a rhemoraz to make a partial charge without having to move to get there.

A-You should get a listen check because you should always get a chance to detect an ambush. Ambushes without either a listen/spot check are like a trap without a search/disable device check. They shouldn't exist. They stink of DM whims, they tell to the player: ''I wanted you to be ambushed and that's all there is to it. I decided it would happen and the fact that you decided to play an elven ranger with the alertness feat isn't going to change that.''

B-You should get a listen check because as soon as you start moving you break the statu quo. When the Rhemoraz starts moving, it'll take him anywhere between 1 and 3 second to reach the surface. It's more than enough to justify the possibility of hearing and acting before it's too late.

C-You should get a listen check because contrary to the assassin's example it is your first chance to hear the critter.

2-Common sense.

So you're telling me the Rhemoraz customarily never moves and that the PCs are simply conveniently walking over him?

Random encounters are usually around 5-8% an hour, but if the nasty predators are going to play statue the chances of meeting them should drop drastically. What are the odds you'll walk right over a rhemoraz considering their hunting territory has got to be several square miles wide?

We must assume that Rhemoraz moves around a lot in search of food, probably above ground most of the time. They are huge beast and certainly require a huge amount of food to sustain their metabolism, which seem to be quite fast if they can manage 10D10 of heat without being fire creature!

For example, Tigers travels for miles each day in search of game. It is logically impossible for a monster with the bodymass of a rhemoraz to hunt by staying immobile most of the day hoping for a prey to come by.

This leaves plenty of opportunity for an alert party to notice the presence of the rhemoraz.

I would add that I doubt that the regular diet of the rhemoraz consist of PCs. More likely elks and such compose its main food source. Therefore it should be somewhat unlikely that the PCs walk over a rhemoraz unless they are also in the immediate vicinity of a more common food source.

 

[Petrosian]

On the swallow whole timing... i mentioned before its in the faq...

here it is for those who... well nevermind...

How does the swallow whole ability work? Can a
creature with this ability try to swallow someone
immediately after biting? The Monster Manual says a
swallowed creature can cut its way out with a Tiny or
Small slashing weapon. What happens if the creature is
Large? Can it use a bigger weapon? A short sword is a
piercing weapon, but it is a sword. Can you cut your
way out with a short sword?
A creature with the swallow whole ability must first
grab a foe with its mouth. On the first round it bites and
inflicts bite damage, then tries to grab its prey as noted in
the answer to the previous question. On the creature’s
next turn, it can attempt to grapple again. If it succeeds, it
inflicts bite damage and swallows the foe.
Being swallowed has various consequences, depending
on the creature doing the swallowing, but a swallowed
creature is considered grappled, while the creature that
did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try
to cut its way free with any light piercing or slashing
weapon, or it can just try to escape the grapple. If the
swallowed creature chooses the latter course, success
puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be
bitten or swallowed again.

 

[Petrosian]

On the spot/hide goblin behind a wall example...

The presence of a wall does not in any way preclude the possibility of "spotting" or more generally noticing someone on the other side of the wall.

believe me, we have walls here and i notice my neighbors every morning when they engage in... well... activities.

lets put goblins in a room behind a wall... possible tells that could exist to alert aa alert character could include...

the steaming trail leaking out where the goblin just took/is taking a leak.

the piles of refuse he has thrown out of his little hidey hole.

the slurping or smacking sounds he is making while eating or engaging in solo...activities.

the shadows cast by him from his little cookfire as he eats.

the noise his sharpening stone makes against his teeth.

Now of course there are a hundred ways said goblin can give tells as to him being there even with a wall. Sure if he is a skilled and savvy goblin he can take care of all these and be alert and silent and never give away his position...

but since goblins do not have "always hidden: in their racial descriptions, we have to look for something to use as a guide.

Some of us it seems feel that the actual skills listed are just dandy for this purpose. The skills like hide and move silently serve as a good guide for how well the creatures hides its presence and how well it keeps its noise down...

nothing else exists to describe these things.

its certainly within a DMs purview to rule a wall absolutely eliminates any chance of revelation of the presence of anything behind it...

but for the rest of us, the skills mean something.

they mean how well the creature uses his hiding places.
they mean how well does the remoraz hide his presence.
how often does the single digit intelligence remoraz figure out the go 100' down then creep up ...
how often does the single digit int remoraz manage to get exactly the right positioning...
he doesnt need to succeed everytime to get enough to survive.

i use the skills...

you use whatever suits you...

 

[IceBear]

Petrosian,

I also use skills in my game too. In the case of someone behind a wall I would allow "spotting" them with a Listen check. I'm sorry, but if there is no line of sight to something I don't think you can spot it. I do agree that if the goblin had left clues that the party could find or had a lit fire which cast shadows under the door I would allow a spot check to determine them too - I would just determine the DC myself and not base it on the goblin's Hide skill because I don't think the goblin's ability at hiding would help it that much on building a fire that wouldn't cast shadows, I see that more as a function of Intelligence and Wisdom (and there are some smart and wise creatures with poor hiding skills, so I can't ignore that either in determining how the monster acts. If you are going to allow the Hide check to base whether or not someone can spot the signs of it's passage then you should be able to use it as an opposed roll to tracking, etc.

I never advocated not being using skills or not being able to "detect" something that you can't see, but I don't think using an opposed Hide vs Spot check would be the way to do it if you don't have line of sight.

For example, the PCs enter a cavern with a huge underground lake. If there was an aboleth in that lake (which doesn't have the Hide skill but is fairly intelligent) if you allowed a Spot check to detect the aboleth was nearby then the average Spot DC would be (10.5 - 8 Huge +1 Dex) or 3.5 (let's say 4). Would you allow PCs to enter the chamber roll 4 or better on a spot check and say "There's something dangerous in that lake"? I wouldn't. Now, in my notes, if I had determined the aboleth had only recently crawled back into the lake then I might decide that the slime and water hasn't all been washed away yet and might give the PCs a Spot vs DC 10 or 15 to notice the slime trail (I've made the assumption that the aboleth used his intelligence and tried to clean up after itself but isn't very good at it - no Hide skill).

Anyway, it seems that we both want to acheive the same thing - the PCs could use Spot checks to notice that there is something on the other side of the wall but we would use different DCs.

IceBear

 

[IceBear]

Okay, some thoughts.

1-Gameplay consideration.

Let's assume the PCs happen to walk over the exact spot that allows a rhemoraz to make a partial charge without having to move to get there.

A-You should get a listen check because you should always get a chance to detect an ambush. Ambushes without either a listen/spot check are like a trap without a search/disable device check. They shouldn't exist. They stink of DM whims, they tell to the player: ''I wanted you to be ambushed and that's all there is to it. I decided it would happen and the fact that you decided to play an elven ranger with the alertness feat isn't going to change that.''

B-You should get a listen check because as soon as you start moving you break the statu quo. When the Rhemoraz starts moving, it'll take him anywhere between 1 and 3 second to reach the surface. It's more than enough to justify the possibility of hearing and acting before it's too late.

C-You should get a listen check because contrary to the assassin's example it is your first chance to hear the critter.

2-Common sense.

So you're telling me the Rhemoraz customarily never moves and that the PCs are simply conveniently walking over him?

Random encounters are usually around 5-8% an hour, but if the nasty predators are going to play statue the chances of meeting them should drop drastically. What are the odds you'll walk right over a rhemoraz considering their hunting territory has got to be several square miles wide?

We must assume that Rhemoraz moves around a lot in search of food, probably above ground most of the time. They are huge beast and certainly require a huge amount of food to sustain their metabolism, which seem to be quite fast if they can manage 10D10 of heat without being fire creature!

For example, Tigers travels for miles each day in search of game. It is logically impossible for a monster with the bodymass of a rhemoraz to hunt by staying immobile most of the day hoping for a prey to come by.

This leaves plenty of opportunity for an alert party to notice the presence of the rhemoraz.

I would add that I doubt that the regular diet of the rhemoraz consist of PCs. More likely elks and such compose its main food source. Therefore it should be somewhat unlikely that the PCs walk over a rhemoraz unless they are also in the immediate vicinity of a more common food source.

Mal,

You obviously haven't read all my posts on this

What I was talking about was not specifically the ice worm situation so let's forget it for a second.

First, according to the rules you get spot and listen checks to notice your opponent. If you fail to notice them before they act you are surprised. If the attacking opponent decided to take a partial charge as his action (a orc charging out from behind the tree you just past), I wouldn't allow a Listen check because the surprise round has already started. If the attacking opponent decided to move up behind you and then attack, I would allow a Listen check to notice it moving closer because the surprise round hasn't started yet until it attacks.

In the case of the ice worm, I don't have it 100% of the time get a surprise attack. I allow the PCs a chance to detect it's presence via Listen checks or Wilderness Lore (or even spot if the conditions were right). I also place the monster on the map, mentally, and I have the PCs move across the map (I do this from time to time when there is nothing there just too keep them guessing). If a PC passes directly over the ice worm without noticing it, then the worm moves up to attack. Now...if the worm can make a partial charge while burrowing, then I would consider that the surprise round. If you can't make a partial charge when burrowing, then I would allow a Listen check to allow the PCs to detect it.

Now, if the PCs don't pass anywhere near the spot that the ice worm is on the map I think try to think like the worm and decide what it would do. It's an ambush hunter so it doesn't like direct confrontation when it's prey is alerted, so in most cases I decide that it doesn't attack and the party passes by the encounter without ever knowing it. If I decide that the worm is extremely hungry or agitated, then I have the worm rush to attack and thus allowing more Listen and Spot checks to detect it.

Honestly, I don't think I'm being a bad DM here or making particularly bad judgement calls on how to handle this. The two things on this thread that I have issues with are allowing a Listen check to avoid surprise once the surprise round has started (as per above example) and using an opposed Hide vs Spot to notice the signs that something is in another room or 20ft under ground. I don't disagree that there aren't signs, I just don't think that using the creature's Hide roll is a good way of determining the DC. I would look at the monster's intelligence, wisdom, and hide skill then base the DC to spot the sign on those factors and the environment (or allow a Wilderness Lore check if applicable).

IceBear

 

[Petrosian]

Petrosian,
- I would just determine the DC myself and not base it on the goblin's Hide skill

To each his own.

When i look at a creature and try to see how good he is at using terrain for hiding, to see how disiplined he is at keeping hidden (presumably for long periods of time just waiting) and to see how well he performs "noise management" etc... instead of just pulling a number out of thin air or running to a generic INT/WIS check which ignores the concept of training altogether, the skills of hide, move silent and wilderness lore seem to me to be the way to go (especially if the creature in question has any racial bonuses in these areas.) I feel this approach covers not only basic INT/WIS aspects but specific training (or lack thereof) and specific natural attributes (or lack thereof.)

YMMV and obviously does.

enjoy your games.