Rhemoraz CR7?

[bret]

[ Edit: Complete rewrite ]

Thought about it a bit, changed my mind.

My experiences with ice are mostly lake ice, where it doesn't tend to get more than a couple feet thick. At about 8" to a foot thick, it might as well be a wall.

Now I'm not sure if there would be something to spot or not. You might still get discolorations or something, but it would most likely be cracks in the ice or a freshly melted spot.

I'm not sure how I would work the attack anymore.

 

[IceBear]

True (although I don't know that you could spot a white worm under 20ft of ice AND snow), but as you say there are enough different conditions out there that a straight Hide vs Spot check isn't necessarily the way to go.

Just so I'm clear, IF there is any way for the players to see the ice worm through the ice and snow, I WOULD allow an opposed Spot vs Hide check (with appropriate modifiers).

[Edit] Whoops, you changed your post

IceBear

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I guess we can just agree that it is complicated.

I do not see that the Burrow ability is supposed to simply imply an almost automatic surprise round attack. That is a major tactical advantage that I just can not see as being implied without any mention at all.

The rules for Burrow do say you can not take the run action. That could be viewed as a poor choices of words for the intent that you can not run at all and therefore can not take any run related actions. Thus the partial charge/burrow tactic would not be allowed. But the actual statement is more specific than this interpreted intent.

If you go with that view of the intent, a listen check would be in order for while the Remorhaz comes up. If you make the check, you are not suprised. If you fail the check, you are. Of course, we still don't have clear guidelines for the Listen DC. But that is just the typical way Listen checks are handled.

The picture works this way for me. The barbarian made his listen check, so he gets to spend the rest of his life running.

 

[IceBear]

What I would do, if you're worried about the burrowing tactic, is to not allow a partial charge.

If you do that, during the surprise round all the ice worm can do is burrow to the surface. During round two then no one is surprised.

I don't like allowing a Listen check once the ice worm starts to move because it's against how surprise works. Basically the worm has detected the players and the players have not detected it, so it's movement *is* part of the surprise round. You can't use Listen checks to retroactively stop being surprised.

As you say, you can't take the run action with burrowing, so it's not that big of a stretch to disallow the partial charge.

IceBear

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I don't like allowing a Listen check once the ice worm starts to move because it's against how surprise works. Basically the worm has detected the players and the players have not detected it, so it's movement *is* part of the surprise round. You can't use Listen checks to retroactively stop being surprised.

If you can move around without the other side knowing it, then it is not yet the surprise round.

It works fine to say that the the creature bursts out of the ground, starting the encounter. The surprise round is now starting. Everyone makes a listen check to determine if they noticed the creature coming up. Those who make the check can participate in the surprise round. Those that don't must wait until the first round of combat.

An extreme and absurd example to make the point, the remorhaz jumps up through the ice behind a party of total losers. None of them make their listen check and the remorhaz is behind them. Being losers, they just stand around, waiting for something to happen. The remorhaz can just sit behind them and wait if it wants. Whenever the remorhaz attacks, or one or more members of the party notice it, the surprise round starts. If the entire party notices it at the same time, then there is no surprise round.


Edit: Unless you are saying that he can't possibly burrow up quietly at all, in which case listen checks are not required and your version woudl be correct. I did not think of it that way until just now.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

As of right now, I do think not allowing the partial charge while burrowing works. But I am not sure if it is right.

 

[IceBear]

If you can move around without the other side knowing it, then it is not yet the surprise round.

It works fine to say that the the creature bursts out of the ground, starting the encounter. The surprise round is now starting. Everyone makes a listen check to determine if they noticed the creature coming up. Those who make the check can participate in the surprise round. Those that don't must wait until the first round of combat.

An extreme and absurd example to make the point, the remorhaz jumps up through the ice behind a party of total losers. None of them make their listen check and the remorhaz is behind them. Being losers, they just stand around, waiting for something to happen. The remorhaz can just sit behind them and wait if it wants. Whenever the remorhaz attacks, or one or more members of the party notice it, the surprise round starts. If the entire party notices it at the same time, then there is no surprise round.

That's true, my previous statements were when I allowed a partial charge with burrowing. If a partial charge was allowed, I wouldn't allow a Listen check to avoid being surprised. That would lead to a paradox - ice worm is undetected so it decides to attack the PC with a partial charge, the PC detects the ice worm as it moves negating surprise (and thus the partial charge).

Now, if we just allowed the worm to move then I'd allow a Listen check (but in all honesty, the PCs would probably see the creature as it burst out of the ice beneath them), as it doesn't really affect any actions in a paradoxical way

IceBear

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Cool.

A rare ENWorld result, a middle ground agreement. Hurray for us!!!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

By the way I just read wilderness lore again. DC 15 check to notice natural dangers. In the description they mention quicksand, but also noticing signs that owlbears live nearby. Just to continue the wilderness lore check thing. DC 15 to notice signs that rhemoraz are nearby seems good.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

By the way anyone know of an official answer or at least a good guess on how quickly this swallow aciton happens. Under swallow whole it reads that you need another grapple check to swallow the creature. But, under improved grab for the remhoraz it says if you hit with a bite attack you can make an improved grab check. Then says if your grapple succeeds you automatically deal bite damage, and can attempt to swallow the creature.

The automatically deal bite damage, and can attempt to swallow. Seems to read to me that it all happens in one round, this thing basically gets a bunch of free actions chained together as long as the last free aciotn succeeded. English majors of the world unite, and explain that sentence structure. Does the automatically part attach to the stuff after the comma as well. I think it does but it's been years since I've taken english so my formal rules are a little rusty.