Rich Baker on the Spellplague and other stuff.

[Nymrohd]

In fact the old FR dragonborn name was not an FR name. FR devs were forced to add into FR pretty much anything that appeared in core supplements in their accesories and novels. So in the Rage of Dragons RSE we got about a couple of dozen of new monsters in the Realms and in Dragons of Faerun we got a mention to the Dragonborn from Races of the Dragon.
I still don't like what the Tymanther story though, they could have made something more intelligent and Dragons of Faerun gave them a lot of options on doing so.

Still nice to find people who do not just go I HATE IT with no actual argument. So here you are

 

[hargert]

I just wish they would have come up with something better then "Time of Troubles 2.0" it just strikes me as un-orginal and heavy handed. I would like to think that professional writers could come up with something better then "well guys we are stuck...I know lets whack the goddess of magic again then we can change everything" I like change and advancement but I like it to be orginal and not just a rehash of the last big world changing event.

 

[rkanodia]

I heard he basically just attends lemon-parties in Calimport these days.

The best thing about having a smartphone is that I can look up memes like lemonparty at work without it showing up in the logs.

The worst thing about having a smartphone is that I just looked up lemonparty at work, and there is no place for me to go run and bleach my eyes out.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I just wish they would have come up with something better then "Time of Troubles 2.0" it just strikes me as un-orginal and heavy handed. I would like to think that professional writers could come up with something better then "well guys we are stuck...I know lets whack the goddess of magic again then we can change everything" I like change and advancement but I like it to be orginal and not just a rehash of the last big world changing event.

Uh, whatever else they did to the FR, Mystra had to die. I'm serious. She was one of the major sources of problems with the old FR, being that she was the goddess of perhaps the most powerful and important force in the AD&D universe, and was Good-aligned, and, on top of that, had her Chosen, near-demi-god powerful individuals who were linked to her and virtually immortal/invulnerable (in practice).

Seriously, if they hadn't whacked Mystra and at least some of the Chosen (and de-Chosen them, at least), would old ex-fans like myself be returning to the fold? I think not. I mean, it's a given, based on what I've heard, that I'll pick up the 4E book and probably at least the first year's worth of non-adventure FR supplements (I've never liked FR adventures post-1E, they always seem to assume to "GOOOOOOD!" a party), and go from there. So, considering that a simple 4E FR would have been ignored by me, that's clearly profit to WotC. I'm sure there are others with the opposite reaction - I just don't believe that there are anywhere near as many.

Anyway, if you were going to change the FR, you neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeded to whack the terribly-written Elminster's sex-toy goddess Mystra and her overpowered, good-aligned buddies.

 

[Kraydak]

It provides an element of danger, a force that wrecked havoc across Faerun and still lies hidden, waiting to reemerge at any time. For me, the benefits are mainly conceptual. I like the concept. I think it makes the Realms more interesting. I already have about a dozen story ideas that use the spellplague - and I haven't even seen the book yet.

I'll take a shot. For one, it's because almost all the major "problem" NPCs were high-level spellcasters who were basically immune to natural aging.

It's fine for a few characters, but in the Realms, it had become like a rite of passage for high-level wizards and sorcerers to become effectively immortal. And with the way resurrection works in D&D, any death other than one that was pretty blatantly supernatural is usually easily reversed. So, the Spell Plague allows you to off a large number of "super-wizards" and not have them come back. Alternatively, you can depower a number of those super-wizards, but keep the characters around. That's a way of having the most interesting characters from earlier times remain in the Realms, but as plot-driving characters rather than plot-ruining ones.

Secondly, with the edition change, magic has to work totally differently in the "new" Realms. The Spell Plague helps to explain away "why things are different." It also fills the role mentioned above - as a metaplot to rid the Realms of a truckload of plot-ruining high-level NPCs in one fell swoop.

As I mentioned in my last post, they might have chosen to keep some of those characters around, but have them become radically depowered, so that now they actually "NEED" to enlist the aid of other characters (like the PCs) again.

That's my two cents on "Why the Spell Plague?"

Huh. My question had a subtlety I hadn't thought of...

Allow me to divide the Spellplague into two different aspects:
Spellplague A is the cataclysmic force that ripped FR to pieces at the beginning of the TLA (time line advance).
Spellplague B is the potentially cataclysmic, but normally relatively quiescent force it is at the end of the TLA.

I agree that Spellplague B could be useful, and it is that which you are referencing. However, I meant to ask about Spellplague A, which is the aspect of the Spellplague that has the FR fans up in arms.

So, to ask the question I meant to, does Spellplague *A* serve any purpose in attracting new fans to FR that isn't overshadowed (or, indeed, utterly overwhelmed) by its ability to drive current fans away?

 

[hargert]

Uh, whatever else they did to the FR, Mystra had to die. I'm serious. She was one of the major sources of problems with the old FR, being that she was the goddess of perhaps the most powerful and important force in the AD&D universe, and was Good-aligned, and, on top of that, had her Chosen, near-demi-god powerful individuals who were linked to her and virtually immortal/invulnerable (in practice).

Anyway, if you were going to change the FR, you neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeded to whack the terribly-written Elminster's sex-toy goddess Mystra and her overpowered, good-aligned buddies.

Yes I can see that but come up with something else to get the job done. Just renaming what you did before just rubs me the wrong way. Hell have another god steal magic from her and leave her with wand users or something. Hell have Azuth do it as he feels that Mystra is too consirned with good and not magic. You would figure all the evil gods would throw in for that and many nutral gods as well. Also you would then de-power many of the chosen with that same move and set up some bitter worshipers on both sides for a good plot device in games to come.

 

[JohnSnow]

Huh. My question had a subtlety I hadn't thought of...

Allow me to divide the Spellplague into two different aspects:
Spellplague A is the cataclysmic force that ripped FR to pieces at the beginning of the TLA (time line advance).
Spellplague B is the potentially cataclysmic, but normally relatively quiescent force it is at the end of the TLA.

I agree that Spellplague B could be useful, and it is that which you are referencing. However, I meant to ask about Spellplague A, which is the aspect of the Spellplague that has the FR fans up in arms.

So, to ask the question I meant to, does Spellplague *A* serve any purpose in attracting new fans to FR that isn't overshadowed (or, indeed, utterly overwhelmed) by its ability to drive current fans away?

So, to your thinking, is "Spellplague A" the RSE that reshapes the geography? Or is it the RSE that causes the wizards to go crazy. I say it's both. And, in many ways, it's the death (or depowering) of many of the super-wizards that's important. And that's part of A, not B. Whatever changes have been made to the geography are, I believe, mostly a non-issue.

And I contend that the current fans who are being "driven away" are dissatisfied with the notion of there being any major revisions to the Forgotten Realms. They'd be fine with the changes, as long as nothing really changed. Oooo...big RSE....explain away the changes to the rules...And then give us our setting laden down with so much history that nobody who hasn't been playing it for 20 years can figure out what the hell is going on without an encyclopedia.

The 3e Forgotten Realms is unwieldy. There's just too much metaplot for the setting to be easily summed up for new players. As some weird shared world, maybe that's good and indicates "depth" or something, but for new players, it's BAD. If I wanted to set a game in Waterdeep, I've gotta deal with hundreds of known NPCs and political intrigues, (or choose to ignore them). The Realms is too detailed. It needs to become less detailed. So, we advance the timeline enough that the DM can now say with confidence that the information on Village Q published in Sourcebook #108 is out-of-date. Now the Realms is a DM's playground again.

The Spellplague lets you write out some of those less-interesting areas, possibly putting new, more compelling locales in their place. And it prevents the know-it-all player from hitting you back with "well, what about the Chosen? Aren't they immortal?"

No. Half of them died in the Spellplague. Take that.

Forget all you know, or think you know. I bid you welcome to the new Forgotten Realms. There's danger lurking where you least expect it. There's more room for adventure. And now, more than ever, the Realms needs heroes.

 

[Kraydak]

So, to your thinking, is "Spellplague A" the RSE that reshapes the geography? Or is it the RSE that causes the wizards to go crazy. I say it's both. And, in many ways, it's the death (or depowering) of many of the super-wizards that's important. And that's part of A, not B. Whatever changes have been made to the geography are, I believe, mostly a non-issue.

Sure, Spellplague A=RSE. But you don't need RSE to depower super-wizards. Spellplague B (carefully defined) suffices for that. Once depowered, the mere passage of time (the TLA) can remove those you need gone.

And I contend that the current fans who are being "driven away" are dissatisfied with the notion of there being any major revisions to the Forgotten Realms. They'd be fine with the changes, as long as nothing really changed. Oooo...big RSE....explain away the changes to the rules...And then give us our setting laden down with so much history that nobody who hasn't been playing it for 20 years can figure out what the hell is going on without an encyclopedia.

How does an RSE change things? Immediately post RSE all the history is still right there. The change, the reduction of the weight of the canon, comes from the TLA.

The 3e Forgotten Realms is unwieldy. There's just too much metaplot for the setting to be easily summed up for new players. As some weird shared world, maybe that's good and indicates "depth" or something, but for new players, it's BAD. If I wanted to set a game in Waterdeep, I've gotta deal with hundreds of known NPCs and political intrigues, (or choose to ignore them). The Realms is too detailed. It needs to become less detailed. So, we advance the timeline enough that the DM can now say with confidence that the information on Village Q published in Sourcebook #108 is out-of-date. Now the Realms is a DM's playground again.

Again, you want a TLA. What you are asking from is *not* a RSE. Note that a TLA allows people who *like* the current FR (and there are many) to keep playing *in* the current FR, while people who don't like the current FR can play in a new FR. An RSE... removes the current FR and doesn't even remove the weight of canon without the help of a TLA.

The Spellplague lets you write out some of those less-interesting areas, possibly putting new, more compelling locales in their place. And it prevents the know-it-all player from hitting you back with "well, what about the Chosen? Aren't they immortal?"

Not post Spellplague B.

No. Half of them died in the Spellplague. Take that.

Forget all you know, or think you know. I bid you welcome to the new Forgotten Realms. There's danger lurking where you least expect it. There's more room for adventure. And now, more than ever, the Realms needs heroes.

The above *only* requires TLA+Spellplague B (or similar).

You are restricting the problem to one of canon overloading to draw in current DnD players that have been scared off (new DnD players won't care either way). A better problem is one of reducing the canon overload WHILE not angering the current fans.

Spellplague B (or something of a similar power level)+TLA will do that. Some people will play in the TLA and keep many/all aspects of current FR. Some will drop most of the aspects of current FR but play in the TLA to avoid the production of new canon (novels). Some will play post TLA.

The RSE simply is not needed.

 

[D_E]

Kraydak, how does Spellplague B get rid of the super-wizards?

The TLA gets rid of any low-level NPC adventurers hanging around, but the super wizards are immortal. And this imortality is not linked to divine patronage, by the way. It's based on magic.

If the high level superwizards stick around, then you didn't solve the big problem, which is why the superwizards don't just do everything themselves.

Spellplague B would keep them away from areas where Spellplague B is still hanging around, but I wouldn't want to have to work Spellplague B into every plot for low level characters.

 

[glass]

I referring to these statements of Rich's.


Previous contradictions of new stuff were wrong, even without knowing the details.
and

He didn't say anything like that. He said that the weave cannot be necessary to sustain life because if it was people would drop dead every time they walked into a dead-magic area. I don't really see how you can argue with that.

Old dragonborn are different from new dragonborn! We aren't even responsible for the bad choice of names! Its just a coincidence!

Well, they are, he isn't, and it is. Its unfortunate, but given that Dragonborn in the new PHB are different from Dragonborn in the old Realms, what else can he say?

@John- of course, we're also being told that the super-wizards are the least likely to be permanently effected by the Spellplague. Kinda contradictory, isn't it?

He didn't say that either. Elminster will survive, of course, but they have already said that most of the other chosen won't be making it.


glass.