Riddles and Roleplaying

[Orc Breath]

Is the answer the Elf?

 

[Tuatara]

I love riddles but I've found they tend to stall games. Seems best to me to have a riddle lead to a shortcut of some kind (literally or figuratively) rather than making it a mandatory gate.

If I had my way all my games would have gated sections that take solving riddles to move through - but a lot of players don't enjoy that kind of thing.

 

[Quickleaf]

I designed a riddle based on Einstein's Riddle for my group as a capstone to one of my modules. Its intended to make the group think and challenge them. My problem is that to me it makes complete sense. I have handed it to a few other people and all of them simply refuse to try it.

The narrative for goes like this.

You enter a large room. unremarkable room lit only bright light from the ceiling shining on a table in the center. It is obvious that several dozen tiny objects sit on the table. Through the dim light you can see there are five niches in the far wall in front of the table. Once you enter the room the door slams shut behind you. Floating about forty feet above the table is a gnarled wooden staff.
Approaching the table you see there are a couple dozen items around the periphery to your right and left. In the center is a carving of the room with niches along the wall in front of the table. As you gaze at the table words suddenly appear.

[TD="bgcolor: #dce6f2"] You have travelled far and your journey is not yet at an end. Answer my riddle and you shall receive that which you seek. Fail this task and pain you shall reap. Before you are the tombs of five great warriors Resting here for the coming timekeepers To reach them you must assemble their figures Place them with the correct set of fixtures To gain your treasure when you find its owner [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #dce6f2"]

1. Dwarves love rubies.
2. The Gnome wields a Greatsword.
3. The Half-orc rides an Asperi.
4. Diamonds are always on the right of the Emeralds.
5. Whomever stands on the Emerald rides a Pegasus.
6. Whomever wields a Flail wears Chainmail.
7. Whomever covets Agates wears Banded Mail.
8. Whomever stands in the center rides a Unicorn.
9. The Human stands on the first pedestal.
10. Whomever wears Studded Leather stands next to the longbow wielder.
11. The Dagger wielder stands beside the one that wears Banded Mail.
12. The one that wears Full Plate rides a Dragon.
13. The Elf wears Splintmail.
14. The Human stands beside the Sapphire.
15. Whomever wears Studded Leather stands beside the Hippogriff rider.

[/TD]

My plan is to have the players follow the clues and assemble the appropriate figures correctly, when they determine who wields the staff, a specture of that figure will leave their alcove grab the staff and give it to the party. If they completely assemble any of the figures in correctly, then the correct specter will fly out of its alcove and make a single attack on the closest player, the disappear into the wall behind them. Then use the periphery of the room to return to its alcove and await the next mistake.

I figure the party would recieve a perception check to notice details of the figure when it attacks.

Anyway, my question is, can anyone make sense of this riddle other than me? Any suggestions on how best to make this work?

What is the context? Why do you list a bunch of numbered "facts" without explaining their context? I'm assuming each is a clue in the logic puzzle? Are these clues your players have already been consciously compiling leading up to this encounter? If so, awesome! Are they clues that suddenly appear on the table along with the riddle? If so, that feels forced and (as a player) would leave me a little cold.

If you want feedback, you need to present the information to us as if you were presenting it to your players.

For example:

"The Gnome wields a Greatsword."

What frickin' gnome? What are you talking about? Do we (assuming we're the players) already know that each tomb housed a ruler of a different race (Gnome, Human, Eld, Dwarf, and Half-Orc)? That's fine, but you've got to explicitly state that, and explain to us how your players know.

You're assuming way too much.

Also, the "riddle" comes across as terribly artificial in terms of its language. If I was a player and heard that riddle, I'd groan out loud. OR I'd assume that the awkward wording was intentional to hide some kind of linguistic puzzle within the riddle.

Final comment: As a fellow DM, every time I've used "the door slams shut behind you" I've noticed players go into exploration and fighting mode, not puzzle-solving mode. YMMV.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6792769]Demonspell[/MENTION]

Didn't have the time to do the whole thing, but here's where I got to (see screenshot).

I made a logic grid with 5 positions (3 being center), and five categories: race, gem, weapon, armor, and mount.

Clues # 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 13, and 14 were straight-forward and I included them on the grid right away.

The remaining clues were less straight-forward. At the point I reached, it seems like either I'm missing some logic or there's a need to "plug n' chug" some different variations to get a better feel of where everything in the puzzle should be located relative to the other things.

To be honest, it feels a bit tedious.

And not thematic. Why is a gnome associated with a greatsword? That's more of a half-orc kind of weapon, isn't it? At least that's where my mind went.

I'm no master puzzle-solver, but I have thrown a lot of puzzles at my players that managed to involve everyone, not take up gobs of time, felt thematically appropriate, and my players reported a real drive/need to solve these puzzles. So I must be doing something right.

Maybe there's something you haven't shared about how you plan to run this, but as it stands I'm not convinced it would be very fun.

 

[Demonspell]

What is the context? Why do you list a bunch of numbered "facts" without explaining their context? I'm assuming each is a clue in the logic puzzle? Are these clues your players have already been consciously compiling leading up to this encounter? If so, awesome! Are they clues that suddenly appear on the table along with the riddle? If so, that feels forced and (as a player) would leave me a little cold.

This is the end of a module through a tower where they PCs face five challengers from what they are told by five ancient heros. This is the sixth and final challenge. If the PCs have paid attention to the challenges they should have most of the information that tells them how to work the puzzle.

If you want feedback, you need to present the information to us as if you were presenting it to your players.

For example:

"The Gnome wields a Greatsword."

What frickin' gnome? What are you talking about? Do we (assuming we're the players) already know that each tomb housed a ruler of a different race (Gnome, Human, Eld, Dwarf, and Half-Orc)? That's fine, but you've got to explicitly state that, and explain to us how your players know.

You're assuming way too much.

Also, the "riddle" comes across as terribly artificial in terms of its language. If I was a player and heard that riddle, I'd groan out loud. OR I'd assume that the awkward wording was intentional to hide some kind of linguistic puzzle within the riddle.

You know I wrote that riddle because I felt the puzzle needed something more. Now that you point it out, I realize that the missing piece is the riddle that provides the initial directions. God, I feel so dumb. Basing it on Einstein's riddle, I should have caught this.

The version of the riddle I have heard goes like this.

"There are five houses of different colors on a street. The Owners are from five different nationalities. Each owner smokes a different smoke, drinks a different drink and keeps a different pet. Who keeps the fish?"

I completely left this out, and can't believe I missed it. This is the reason I asked for advice. Thank you

Does this make things clearer?

Before you are the tombs of five great heros.
Each one stands upon a different gemstone pedestal.
Each one rides a different animal.
Each one wears a different armor and wields a different weapon.
Determine who wields the staff to receive their bounty.
Fail and you shall face their wrath.

Final comment: As a fellow DM, every time I've used "the door slams shut behind you" I've noticed players go into exploration and fighting mode, not puzzle-solving mode. YMMV.

Yes, I thought about that, but I really want my players to understand that there is no going back. Maybe, I should just make this door some kind of stone portal that they step through and leaves them in this room.

 

[Demonspell]

[MENTION=6792769]Demonspell[/MENTION]

Didn't have the time to do the whole thing, but here's where I got to (see screenshot).

I made a logic grid with 5 positions (3 being center), and five categories: race, gem, weapon, armor, and mount.

Clues # 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 13, and 14 were straight-forward and I included them on the grid right away.

The remaining clues were less straight-forward. At the point I reached, it seems like either I'm missing some logic or there's a need to "plug n' chug" some different variations to get a better feel of where everything in the puzzle should be located relative to the other things.

You are on the right path, and yes everything after those straight forward are related to each other, but also some of the clues are actually directly associated with each other, and that is a conclusion that has to be drawn.

For example: Clues 4 and 5 are referring to the same two heros. So are 7 and 11, and 10 and 15.

Now my question is, does replacing the confusing riddle with something that actually makes sense help?

Like:
Before you are the tombs of five great heros.
Each one stands upon a different gemstone pedestal.
Each one rides a different animal.
Each one wears a different armor and wields a different weapon.
Determine who wields the staff to receive their bounty.
Fail and you shall face their wrath.

To be honest, it feels a bit tedious.

I definately see that, and I was hoping that I could make it less tedious by having them get attacked by a rather harmless attack and giving them an opportunity to see where they made a mistake.

And not thematic. Why is a gnome associated with a greatsword? That's more of a half-orc kind of weapon, isn't it? At least that's where my mind went.

Maybe there's something you haven't shared about how you plan to run this, but as it stands I'm not convinced it would be very fun.

As I stated in my previous reply, there are five challenges before this relating to the five heros that should provide additional information regarding this. Including positioning, for example, a human archer gives the first challenge, a half-orc rogue the second, a dwarven cleric the third, an elven wizard the fourth, and a gnomish paladin the fifth. p

If the players have paid attention then realisitcally this should be easy; however, if they didn't , then its a different story.

 

[Vegepygmy]

But, more generally - not everyone enjoys this kind of puzzle-challenge. Be sure your players like this sort of thing before offering it. Be sure that they *cooperate* well on such, as well, because otherwise what you're doing is handing the capstone to one player, and the rest sit and twiddle their thumbs waiting for the solution.

This.

Personally, whenever I'm presented with a riddle in a D&D game, I get up from the table, tell everyone else to call me back over when they're done, and walk away, because I hate hate HATE dealing with riddles. I get that some people think they're awesome, and you folks are welcome to them, but I wouldn't put up with them if you paid me, much less as part of my recreational time.

 

[Quickleaf]

You are on the right path, and yes everything after those straight forward are related to each other, but also some of the clues are actually directly associated with each other, and that is a conclusion that has to be drawn.

For example: Clues 4 and 5 are referring to the same two heros. So are 7 and 11, and 10 and 15.

I totally am into puzzles, so I was able to pick up what you were aiming for pretty quickly. However, I've never seen a group of players with enough presence of mind and interest during play to actually craft a logic grid.

And, really, unless you're gaming with serious geniuses, you NEED a logic grid to solve this puzzle.

So unless you have exceptional, astute, and very committed players, I don't see anyone actually bothering to make a logic grid in play. Unless, of course, you explicitly tell them "You need to make a logic grid, and hey! I've started this handy handout for you guys!" YMMV.

Now my question is, does replacing the confusing riddle with something that actually makes sense help?

Before you are the tombs of five great heros.
Each one stands upon a different gemstone pedestal.
Each one rides a different animal.
Each one wears a different armor and wields a different weapon.
Determine who wields the staff to receive their bounty.
Fail and you shall face their wrath.

Yep, that's what was needed

To clarify...what do the players ACTUALLY SEE in the niches? Are they completely empty? Are there statues in each niche already? For example, the center niche (position #3) has a unicorn mount there. Do the players need to move some kinda statue there? Do they need to verbally say out loud "unicorn in the center"? Or what? How does the puzzle interaction actually WORK?

From the way you describe it above, it seems like everything is present in the niches already EXCEPT for the weapons. Though I don't think that's what you mean.

Still unclear, still too many assumptions.

Think "boxed text." What do the players PERCEIVE in the room? in the niches?

I definately see that, and I was hoping that I could make it less tedious by having them get attacked by a rather harmless attack and giving them an opportunity to see where they made a mistake.

You've got the stick, that's great. But put some thought into the carrot...for example, clues you can drop on a successful Intelligence check or divination spell at the bare minimum.

I envision this as a several hour long scenario. At least an 1 hour for players to "hit stride" and figure out how to solve it, at least 1 hour to work together to solve it, and then extra time for whatever fights/traps you have in store for them (and whatever hijinx they have in store for you).

As I stated in my previous reply, there are five challenges before this relating to the five heros that should provide additional information regarding this.

That's great that there are five challenges before this which will provide the players with clues. It's really important to spread clues out. ALSO, it's important for each necessary clue to have multiple ways to reach the PCs. For example, say they need to get the clue that The Elf wears Splintmail.

You would want to come up with three vectors for them to get that clue, for example:

1. Lord Erundil of the elves passed down his white steel splintmail thru his family line, but it was lost when orcs toppled the elven kingdom. Rumors of the magic splintmail have intrigued various adventurers over the years.
2. The dwarven library the PCs visited had several stone tablets depicting fighting against elven commandos wearing stylized splintmail.
3. A group of elven assassins the PCs faced wore Japanese-style splint armor blackened with pitch.

Not the greatest clues, but I don't know the particulars of your scenario and setting.

Including positioning, for example, a human archer gives the first challenge, a half-orc rogue the second, a dwarven cleric the third, an elven wizard the fourth, and a gnomish paladin the fifth.

That's pretty abstract. WHY should players assume that the order they face the challenge-givers has ANYTHING to do with the order in which the ancient heroes are laid in their tombs? And if there IS a convincing reason, then you need to make sure the players are aware of this (and don't be coy about).

If the players have paid attention then realisitcally this should be easy; however, if they didn't , then its a different story.

If I had a nickel for every time a DM said "well, if the players paid attention..." Basically, from the DM's perspective, ALWAYS assume the players won't have paid the same kind of attention you have to the story, NPCs, riddles, etc. They'll miss things either because (a) they're goofing off or just tired that day, (b) your exposition goes over their heads or isn't as clear as you imagined it to be, (c) they're completely distracted/interested in something else in your game.

That's why Justin Alexander came up with his Three Clue Rule. Definitely worth a read if you're not already familiar with it.

EDIT: Oh! A final thought! This is the kind of puzzle that is GREATLY enhanced by props, even if it's something as simple as treasure cards that the players arrange and rearrange. It helps a lot of players to have visual cues to visualize this sort of puzzle.

 

[Orc Breath]

Didn't have time to print the full solution last night, but:

1. Human, Banded, Long Bow, Agate, Hipogriff
2. Half-Orc, Studded Leather, Dagger, Sapphire, Asperi
3. Dwarf, Chainmail, Flail, Ruby, Unicorn
4. Elf, Splint, Staff, Emerald, Pegasus
5. Gnome, Plate, Great Sword, Diamond, Dragon

Elf gets the Magic Staff.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

I tried it with making logic grids and couldn't figure it out. If you decide to go with it, I would remove many of the variables so it doesn't consume much game time.