Riddles

[Herremann the Wise]

But what if the ball is lighter and is in group C?

I'm starting to think this puzzle is too difficult.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[333 Dave]

But what if the ball is lighter and is in group C?

I'm starting to think this puzzle is too difficult.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Oh right. Forgot about that. I thought I had it too.... hmm...

 

[333 Dave]

OK, thinking out loud time.
Assuming its not group A, I have that down at least.
We have to figure out if its heavier or lighter before we go into is it B or C, or we end up wasting usages of the scales. How would we do this? Lets say it is heavier for sake of example.
We might even want to figure this, if possible, before even compairing B to C.

OOH! Three uses? 4 groups of 3 balls!
If A == B, toss them.
If B==C, then it has to be D! else its C!
If D1 == B1, its D2 or D3 DAMNIT NEED ONE MORE USE!

 

[Hypersmurf]

You have to ensure that each ball has a unique three-weigh characteristic - in other words, you can't have any given pair of balls in the same pan in all three weighings. If you know that the scale was always light whenever balls 3 and 7 are together, all you know for sure is that either 3 or 7 is light.

So - four balls in each pan, each weighing.

First weighing : 1,2,3,4 in pan 1; 5,6,7,8 in pan 2.
Second Weighing : 1,2,5,9 in pan 1; 4,8,11,12 in pan 2.
Third Weighing: 2,7,8,12 in pan 1; 5,6,10,11 in pan 2.

There are twenty-four possible "odd balls" : 1 light; 1 heavy; 2 light; 2 heavy; and so on up to 12 light; 12 heavy.

There are twenty-seven theoretically-possible results of your three weighings, depending on whether Scale 1 is balanced, light, or heavy compared to scale 2 :

BBB - not actually possible, since we know one ball is weighted.
BBL - Ball 10 is heavy.
BBH - Ball 10 is light.
BLB - Ball 9 is light.
BHB - Ball 9 is heavy.
LBB - Ball 3 is light.
HBB - Ball 3 is heavy.
BLL - Ball 11 is heavy.
BLH - Ball 12 is heavy.
BHL - Ball 12 is light.
BHH - Ball 11 is light.
LBL - Ball 6 is heavy.
LBH - Ball 7 is heavy.
HBL - Ball 7 is light.
HBH - Ball 6 is light.
LLB - Ball 1 is light.
LHB - Ball 4 is light.
HLB - Ball 4 is heavy.
HHB - Ball 1 is heavy.
LLL - Ball 2 is light.
LLH - Ball 8 is heavy.
LHL - Ball 5 is heavy.
LHH - not actually possible; no ball is in one tray for weighing 1 and the other for 2 and 3.
HLL - not actually possible; no ball is in one tray for weighing 1 and the other for 2 and 3.
HLH - Ball 5 is light.
HHL - Ball 8 is light.
HHH - Ball 2 is heavy.

27 unique states, three of which never occur, leaving 24 - which map to the 24 possible odd balls.

-Hyp.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Nice one Hypersmurf!

That was a good puzzle.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[presumed_druid]

I think that puzzles are great in games as long as the DM doesn't over use them, and he somehow makes them integral to the game.

Here's a couple more that could easily fit into a fantasy setting:

I have ten troll strength,
I have ten trolls length.
One man can hold me up,
No man can stand me up.
What am I?

Weight in my belly,
trees are my back.
Nails in my ribs,
feet I do lack.

I'm often held, yet rarely touched;
I'm always wet, yet never rust;
I'm sometimes wagged, and sometimes bit;
To use me well, you must have wit.



Let's say that a thief in your group gets caught stealing the crown jewels, and is sentenced to death. The weak-willed king feels sorry and allows him to choose his own way to die. How should he answer?

 

[Steverooo]

More riddles

I think that puzzles are great in games as long as the DM doesn't over use them, and he somehow makes them integral to the game.

Here's a couple more that could easily fit into a fantasy setting:

I have ten troll strength,
I have ten trolls length.
One man can hold me up,
No man can stand me up.
What am I?

A chain. (Trolls' needs a possessive apostrophe, by the bayou.)

Weight in my belly,
trees are my back.
Nails in my ribs,
feet I do lack.

A wagon.

I'm often held, yet rarely touched;
I'm always wet, yet never rust;
I'm sometimes wagged, and sometimes bit;
To use me well, you must have wit.

Your tongue (this was asked, above).

Let's say that a thief in your group gets caught stealing the crown jewels, and is sentenced to death. The weak-willed king feels sorry and allows him to choose his own way to die. How should he answer?

This was also asked above, where the answer was "Old age", but there really isn't a good answer... The King could lock you in a tower until you died of old age. "Adventuring" could get you sent off to the Dungeon of Doom... "Unaided" just means that he lets something kill you without anyone being allowed to help you... "Naturally" just means that he has to toss you in a watery dungeon (or cold, or hot, or...) until you succumb...

So I guess "old age" is still the best answer; at least you get the chance to try and escape (if not under constant guard)!

 

[der_kluge]

Hypersmurf, that's interesting.

So, if I understand you right -

Let's say ball 7 is the culprit.

So, I weigh balls 1,2,3,4 against balls 5,6,7,8
The result is the the right side weighs either more or less depending on what ball 7 weighs.

Then I weigh balls 1,2,5,9 against balls 4,8,11,12 and I see that they are balanced. I can then exclude all of these balls from my third weighing.

So, for the third weighing, I would normally weigh balls 2,7,8,12 against balls 5,6,10,11.
Since I know that balls 2,8,12,5,11 are all balanced, I can exclude them from the third weighing.
That leaves balls 7,6, and 10.

If I weigh 7 and 6, I won't know which ball is the culprit, and I have the same problem when I weigh 7 and 10. Only if I weigh 6 and 10 will I know that 7 is the culprit.

Am I missing something?

If you end up with two balls to be weighed on the last try, you'll never really know which one is the wrong one.

 

[Shemeska]

Hmm.... as far as riddles go, I had my players encounter one a few months ago. Trapped in a death trap laden labyrinth that may or may not have been located underneath the Palace of the Jester in Sigil they came across a room with a triple aspected fountain.

Room with a triple aspected fountain, one of silver, one of copper, and one of gold. Riddle impressed upon the floor before and ringing the foundtain. Silver = Oceanus. Copper = Ma’at. Gold = Styx.

Room is small and circular with high vaulted ceiling and long seeming windows of colored glass set high above that bring down shafts of colored light, still far underground, they cannot lead to outside…

Soft bubbling of water fills the air and at the bottom of the fountain the three mix, but above on the stage above the bottom each well is separate. Bottom is only pure water with a slight metallic taste. Above: Oceanus will cure 3 hp and cast bless. Ma’at will cast confusion and divination. Styx will make a will save DC 17 or suffer total amnesia, if made only lose past 8 hours of memory.

Door locks behind the party with a prismatic wall and antimagic field fills room. Voice echoes in the PCs’ heads, ‘Drink but one sip of one of the founts and find your freedom through the door with safety, read the riddle, know the signs and harken the rule of three.’

Each member of the party sees the others vanish, leaving them and them along to find their own passage from the room and make their own choice. Regardless of choice, once they drink they’ll go back to the rest of the party once all have drunk.

‘Of gold I am, and by gold I’m plied, drink of copper and find no peace, but drink of me and find release.’

‘Copper gilt, and burnished bright, bright as sun where there is no night, wise men chained and wise men seek, bubbling visions not for the weak.’

‘Silent flow and silent passage, archon, guardinal, eladrin drink, cross chaos and order, but good alone, tainted of evil, drink and atone.’


Suffice to say it was interesting since along with them into this room had come a Molydeus Tanar'ri who had lied through his teeth that he knew the way out of the maze. The moment they all reappear in the room with the door open he starts attacking them (while hacking up blood from having drunk Oceanus water, the other two fountains would have left him unable to effectively attack them). Never again will the PC's in this game trust a Tanar'ri to tell the truth when he says he's geased to not harm them. *chuckle*

One of the PC's drank Styx water, which thankfully they made the save for total memory loss for, otherwise it would have been bad for them on top of being where they were.

But riddles are fun. *evil grin*

 

[der_kluge]

Oh, I see now, Hypersmurf. I went back and read your post more closely. I understand now.

That's pretty slick!

I think I might use this puzzle in a game. But, riddle (no pun intended) the dungeon with the solution set throughout, and have the room lead to a non-plot critical treasure vault or something.