Ridiculous dwarven fighter?

[Scharlata]

Ahem....

Never done character tweaking in public. So, for starters: If this post doesn't belong here, please, mods, move it as you like.

This is about a new dwarf concept for a starting campaign. Even if I've not yet spoken to my future DM, I know, he's most of the times very generous including all core and splat books into his campaigns.

Please point out the errors, if you encounter them. I don't know, if I'm doing my character correctly.

If I now did have a 1st-level dwarven fighter with the Dwarf Fighter Substitution level from Races of Stone [p. 146] and (modified) stats of STR 16, he'd have a BAB of +1, 15 hp (12 + 3), and Axe Focus (Fighter Substitution feat), and the character would treat the Dwarven Waraxe as martial weapon instead of exotic weapon (dwarven racial trait). He could then take Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior, p. 103) at 1st level and use a Large Dwarven Waraxe for 2d8 points of damage [M 1d10 --> L 2d8]. Then he would have an attack roll modifier of +3 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large Weapon in one hand] +1 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus]).

When he levels up to 2nd level, he could take Two-Weapon Fighting as his 2nd-level Fighter feat. His BAB improves by +1. If he now took a second weapon (Medium dwarven waraxe, 1d10 points of damage) in his off hand, he would have an attack modifier with his primary hand of +0 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand] +2 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -4 [2 Weapon Fighting no light weapon in off hand] and an attack modifier with his off hand of +2 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand]) +2 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -4 [Two-Weapon Fighting no light weapon in off hand]).

When he later levels up to 3rd level and improving his BAB by another +1, he could take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer, p. 111), grabbing another Large dwarven waraxe in his off hand [2d8 damage points], reducing his 2-Weapon-Fighting penalties by 2 points (as it counts now as a light weapon in the off hand) for an attack modifier [primary hand] of +3 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand] +3 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -2 [Two-Weapon Fighting light weapon in off hand]) and an modified attack roll with his off hand of +3 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand] +3 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -2 [now as light weapon with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting]).

Are the calculations correct? Is the wording of Monkey Grip and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting allowing this (ridiculous) character concept?

Kind regards

 

[nogray]

...

When he levels up to 2nd level, he could take Two-Weapon Fighting as his 2nd-level Fighter feat. His BAB improves by +1. If he now took a second weapon (Medium dwarven waraxe, 1d10 points of damage) in his off hand, he would have an attack modifier with his primary hand of +0 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand] +2 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -4 [2 Weapon Fighting no light weapon in off hand] and an attack modifier with his off hand of +2 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand]) +2 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -4 [Two-Weapon Fighting no light weapon in off hand]).

...

Are the calculations correct? Is the wording of Monkey Grip and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting allowing this (ridiculous) character concept?

The offhand at second level is miscalculated. You show total bonuses of +6 (BAB, STR, Axe Focus) and total penalties of -6 (Oversized/Monkey-gripped weapon, TWF with non-light in off hand). That should be a total of +0 to offhand attack. Everything else looks good, except the anime-style inspiration of using two axes bigger than their weilder. That might look silly to some. (edit for spelling)

Second Edit: Some apply the penalty (-2) for monkey grip for each over-sized weapon that is wielded. I'm not sure which interpretation the 3.5 text supports. That would make the 3rd level attack bonuses two lower, of course.

 

[Scharlata]

The offhand at second level is miscalculated. You show total bonuses of +6 (BAB, STR, Axe Focus) and total penalties of -6 (Oversized/Monkey-gripped weapon, TWF with non-light in off hand). That should be a total of +0 to offhand attack.

Should be +2 [Just delete the -2 for the Large weapon; it's a Medium level at 2nd level].

... except the anime-style inspiration of using two axes bigger than their weilder. That might look silly to some.

That's a giveaway.

Second Edit: Some apply the penalty (-2) for monkey grip for each over-sized weapon that is wielded. I'm not sure which interpretation the 3.5 text supports. That would make the 3rd level attack bonuses two lower, of course.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting. Please explain.

Thanx

 

[nogray]

Anime-style fighting

...

If I now did have a 1st-level dwarven fighter with the Dwarf Fighter Substitution level from Races of Stone [p. 146] and (modified) stats of STR 16, he'd have a BAB of +1, 15 hp (12 + 3), and Axe Focus (Fighter Substitution feat), and the character would treat the Dwarven Waraxe as martial weapon instead of exotic weapon (dwarven racial trait). He could then take Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior, p. 103) at 1st level and use a Large Dwarven Waraxe for 2d8 points of damage [M 1d10 --> L 2d8]. Then he would have an attack roll modifier of +3 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large Weapon in one hand] +1 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus]).

That seems accurate to me. So far, so good.

When he levels up to 2nd level, he could take Two-Weapon Fighting as his 2nd-level Fighter feat. His BAB improves by +1. If he now took a second weapon (Medium dwarven waraxe, 1d10 points of damage) in his off hand, he would have an attack modifier with his primary hand of +0 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand] +2 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -4 [2 Weapon Fighting no light weapon in off hand] and an attack modifier with his off hand of +2 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand]) +2 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -4 [Two-Weapon Fighting no light weapon in off hand]).

By some readings, particularly in 3.0, the -2 penalty from Monkey Grip was applied to all attacks made that round. Rereading the 3.5 version, it looks like this is no longer the case. I should point out that there is really no difference to this character (beyond the -2 for the Monkey Grip large weapon penalty) between the Large dwarven waraxe and one that is of regular (Medium) size. Thus, for maximum silliness, he should be using two large waraxes at this level, for attack modifiers of +0 in each. Or, as you point out, +0 with main, +2 with offhand if he uses a Medium waraxe.

When he later levels up to 3rd level and improving his BAB by another +1, he could take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer, p. 111), grabbing another Large dwarven waraxe in his off hand [2d8 damage points], reducing his 2-Weapon-Fighting penalties by 2 points (as it counts now as a light weapon in the off hand) for an attack modifier [primary hand] of +3 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand] +3 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -2 [Two-Weapon Fighting light weapon in off hand]) and an modified attack roll with his off hand of +3 (+3 [STR] -2 [Large weapon in one hand] +3 [BAB] +1 [Axe Focus] -2 [now as light weapon with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting]).

Are the calculations correct? ...

Everything seems okay to me. What I was refering to with the previous reply is the text on page 7 of Sword and Fist (the first appearance of Monkey Grip, in 3.0). It reads, "You suffer a -2 penalty on your attack roll when using this feat." This was usually interpreted to mean that if you used monkey grip for each hand, the penalty applied twice. The 3.5 reading of the feat removes this interpretation.

Hope that helps.

 

[Scharlata]

Thus, for maximum silliness, he should be using two large waraxes at this level, for attack modifiers of +0 in each. Or, as you point out, +0 with main, +2 with offhand if he uses a Medium waraxe.

Yes, you are right. Thanx

 

[Zaister]

Second Edit: Some apply the penalty (-2) for monkey grip for each over-sized weapon that is wielded. I'm not sure which interpretation the 3.5 text supports. That would make the 3rd level attack bonuses two lower, of course.

I'm not really sure it is relevant whether to apply the -2 penalty once or twice, since Monkey Grip clearly says "You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off-hand", and I don't think this is superseded by Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, as that feat does not mention weapons of larger sizes. It does not allow you to do things that would otherwise be impossible, it just reduces penalties.

Stefan
[The DM]

 

[Scharlata]

I'm not really sure it is relevant whether to apply the -2 penalty once or twice, since Monkey Grip clearly says "You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off-hand", and I don't think this is superseded by Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, as that feat does not mention weapons of larger sizes. It does not allow you to do things that would otherwise be impossible, it just reduces penalties.

Hi!

Re-reading Monkey Grip suggests your point of view.

But fighting with a Medium dwarven waraxe as a one-handed weapon with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting in the off-hand would be within the normal limits of both feats?

Kind regards

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

But fighting with a Medium dwarven waraxe as a one-handed weapon with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting in the off-hand would be within the normal limits of both feats?

Yep. You can, in fact, dual wield Dwarven Waraxes with that feat.

Brad

 

[Zaister]

But fighting with a Medium dwarven waraxe as a one-handed weapon with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting in the off-hand would be within the normal limits of both feats?

Definitely. That's what the feat is for.

 

[Krafen]

For additional sillyness, you could make them Heavy Dwarven Waraxes.

That would require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, though.