"Ring, engage the cloaking device" "Aye, aye, captain"

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I would absolutely rule against that.

You'd be wrong, however.

An intentelligent item has a full suite of actions available to it - just like a familiar.

 

[HeavyG]

I would absolutely rule against that. The ring doesn't function fully independently - it only gets the ability to activate itself it does not have an entire set of actions that are equivalent to those of the wielder (unless the actions it is capable are specificaly specified - in this case a ring physically has no movement it can essentially only talk (free action) and acitivate its power - which happnes on its wielder's turn in the initiative order). That is, the item does not have a move, swift, standard action structure - and it functions when the wielder does - so how does this fit into the equation without imbalancing the game?

Even if that were true, I don't think it would change anything, though.

If the the ring acts on the same initiative count as you, then it can act after your round of actions. Thus, you make all your attacks and then the ring activates itself. You'd only be invisible during part of your own round. That wouldn't prevent readied actions to attack you when you turn visible, though.

If your ring can ready an action, you could make two invisible attacks during a round (attack/readied invisibility/attack). It would only work for one round and would make you visible for the whole next round, though, so that's way suboptimal.

 

[irdeggman]

You'd be wrong, however.

An intentelligent item has a full suite of actions available to it - just like a familiar.

Not quite true.

For one the DM is never wrong although he can change his mind.

Setting that aside, it all depends on how you handle things. An intelligent item does have a set of actions to choose from (as you pointed out) since it is treated as an NPC (see SRD quote). It cannot do a movement action unless it has a special ability to allow it to move (e.g., it can’t move, run, charge, etc. unless it has a speed – most don’t). It could do a full round action, a delay, a standard action, etc.

Now comes the interesting part. No where that I have found does it address when a familiar (or summoned creature for that matter) goes in the initiative order or whether they have their own set of independent actions for that matter (e.g., roll their own initiative, etc.).

For Intelligent items it does specifically state that they act in their wielder’s turn in the initiative order. I read the treat them as NPCs comment more for having a distinct personality (something that is greatly expounded on in the section on Intelligent items), with particular emphasis on what role the item wishes to have and what it considers to be important (including itself). An intelligent item has its [bold]own set of priorities[/bold] (hence the treat them as an NPC notation).

So how is a summoned creature or a familiar handled as far as actions and turn in the initiative order handled? This is something that is totally left up to the DM as far as I can tell. IMO this and handled an intelligent item are very closely related, although the personality of the intelligent items appears to give more weight to my derivation as to what treating it as an NPC means.


From the SRD

INTELLIGENT ITEMS
Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes. Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.) In general, less than 1% of magic items have intelligence.

Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise.

Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner’s turn in the initiative order.

ITEMS AGAINST CHARACTERS
When an item has an Ego of its own, it has a will of its own. The item is, of course, absolutely true to its alignment. If the character who possesses the item is not true to that alignment’s goals or the item’s special purpose, personality conflict—item against character—results. Similarly, any item with an Ego score of 20 or higher always considers itself superior to any character, and a personality conflict results if the possessor does not always agree with the item.

When a personality conflict occurs, the possessor must make a Will saving throw (DC = item’s Ego). If the possessor succeeds, she is dominant. If she fails, the item is dominant. Dominance lasts for one day or until a critical situation occurs (such as a major battle, a serious threat to either the item or the character, and so on). Should an item gain dominance, it resists the character’s desires and demands concessions such as any of the following.
• Removal of associates or items whose alignment or personality is distasteful to the item.
• The character divesting herself of all other magic items or items of a certain type.
• Obedience from the character so the item can direct where they go for its own purposes.
• Immediate seeking out and slaying of creatures hateful to the item.
• Magical protections and devices to protect the item from molestation when it is not in use.
• That the character carry the item with her on all occasions.
• That the character relinquish the item in favor of a more suitable possessor due to alignment differences or conduct.
In extreme circumstances, the item can resort to even harsher measures, such as the following acts:
• Force its possessor into combat.
• Refuse to strike opponents.
• Strike at its wielder or her associates.
• Force its possessor to surrender to an opponent.
• Cause itself to drop from the character’s grasp.

Naturally, such actions are unlikely when harmony reigns between the character’s and item’s alignments or when their purposes and personalities are well matched. Even so, an item might wish to have a lesser character possess it in order to easily establish and maintain dominance over him, or a higher-level possessor so as to better accomplish its goals.

All magic items with personalities desire to play an important role in whatever activity is under way, particularly combat. Such items are rivals of each other, even if they are of the same alignment. No intelligent item wants to share its wielder with others. An intelligent item is aware of the presence of any other intelligent item within 60 feet, and most intelligent items try their best to mislead or distract their host so that she ignores or destroys the rival. Of course, alignment might change this sort of behavior.

Items with personalities are never totally controlled or silenced by the characters who possess them, even though they may never successfully control their possessors. They may be powerless to force their demands but remain undaunted and continue to air their wishes and demands.

So while I was incorrect in my statement concerning what actions an item can make (it can make more, but not all of the action selections a PC can) The whole delay, ready function and the item has its own actions independent of its wielder is a real issue that is not clear in the RAW how to handle.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Not quite true.

For one the DM is never wrong although he can change his mind.

Stuff and nonsense. The DM is quite often wrong.

It could do a full round action, a delay, a standard action, etc.

Or a pair of move actions. Just because it (normally) cannot physically move does not mean that it cannot perform move actions.

It retains the capability to use abilities like "As a move action, you may direct this spell" and others.

Now comes the interesting part. No where that I have found does it address when a familiar (or summoned creature for that matter) goes in the initiative order or whether they have their own set of independent actions for that matter (e.g., roll their own initiative, etc.).

They all have their own set of independent actions - they are creatures.

For simplicity's sake, most people I play with have the familiar automatically act on the controller's initiative, though it need not be done this way.

As for summoned creatures:

It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

Since the spell resolves immediately before your own next turn (1 round casting time), the creature appears and then acts on your initiative - just immediately before the summoner's next action. On the last round of the spell, it performs its actions and the disappears just as the summoner's turn comes up.

So how is a summoned creature or a familiar handled as far as actions and turn in the initiative order handled? This is something that is totally left up to the DM as far as I can tell.

No, it isn't. They act like any other creature or [N]PC.

 

[moritheil]

I don't see anything that supports the idea that intelligent rings can delay or ready actions. The text doesn't say that a ring gets the same initiative as the wielder; it says "Intelligent items act during their owner’s turn in the initiative order." This seems to imply that it must act then. You can argue that "readying an action" is "acting," but then we get into a question of what the intent was in terms of intelligent items complicating combat. And the issue of simultaneous actions still plays a part, because if readied actions only react to things later in the round, then a DM could rule that something that happened simultaneous with or just prior to the readying of an action by an intelligent item did not set off the readied action.

Of course, you could ask, if the owner delays, what happens then? Is the owner's turn considered to be later, or was the earlier turn considered the owner's original turn? IIRC delaying changes what your turn in the initiative order is, not just changing when your action takes effect, so it's a nonissue, but I'd be interested in hearing what people think.

Even if that were true, I don't think it would change anything, though.

If the the ring acts on the same initiative count as you, then it can act after your round of actions. Thus, you make all your attacks and then the ring activates itself. You'd only be invisible during part of your own round. That wouldn't prevent readied actions to attack you when you turn visible, though.

If your ring can ready an action, you could make two invisible attacks during a round (attack/readied invisibility/attack). It would only work for one round and would make you visible for the whole next round, though, so that's way suboptimal.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I don't see anything that supports the idea that intelligent rings can delay or ready actions. The text doesn't say that a ring gets the same initiative as the wielder; it says "Intelligent items act during their owner’s turn in the initiative order."

Then here's a related question. Can a summoned Hound Archon delay or ready an action?

 

[moritheil]

Then here's a related question. Can a summoned Hound Archon delay or ready an action?

A summoned Hound Archon is not an intelligent item, and follows the rules for summoned monsters explicitly.

Let me put it another way, since my reply comes off as a bit brusque. Suppose you cast Shambler and call forth shambling mounds for guard duty. The shambling mounds are monster allies, right? Monsters with a land speed can walk wherever they want, right? But in this case, it's specified that they stay within a certain range, so they have to obey that stipulation.

Similarly, in this case, it specifies that intelligent items act at a certain time in combat, and they must obey that stipulation.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A summoned Hound Archon is not an intelligent item, and follows the rules for summoned monsters explicitly.

Excellent. I believe you mentioned that intelligent items could not delay or ready because they must act "during their owner's turn in the initiative order."

We'll ignore, for the moment, the problematic definition of "owner."

I posited a summoned Hound Archon wishing to delay or ready an action - which you claim must follow the rules for summoned monsters "explicitly."

The rules on Summon Monster, however, state:

It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

Given that the same language appears in both - "[someone's] turn" - why, then, do you argue that in the one case it means one thing, while in the other it means something else?

 

[moritheil]

Excellent. I believe you mentioned that intelligent items could not delay or ready because they must act "during their owner's turn in the initiative order."

Given that the same language appears in both - "[someone's] turn" - why, then, do you argue that in the one case it means one thing, while in the other it means something else?

Well, to me, it seems that a summoned monster acts immediately when you summon it, on your turn, and thereafter is treated as a monster, with its own initiative. Is that not how you handle it? By contrast, an intelligent item is bound to always act simultaneously with its owner.

However, having seen your case for the full range of options for an intelligent item, and acknowledging their treatment as NPCs, I will agree that it makes sense.

Mostly, it seemed to me that the "act simultaneously with its owner" clause was made so DMs would not go insane adjucating the actions of fourteen player characters, their familiars, their cohorts, their followers, and each and every one of the magic intelligent items attached to every one of those, as well as the three dozen enemy goblins, BBEG, BBEG's lieutenants, and all of their (BBEG and his officers') magic intelligent items. For me, this is a real concern, as at one point I had 12 PCs in my campaign, and it tends to stabilize at around 10 PCs.

YMMV.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

By contrast, an intelligent item is bound to always act simultaneously with its owner.

Just like a summoned monster is.

Mostly, it seemed to me that the "act simultaneously with its owner" clause was made so DMs would not go insane

Exactly.

That assumption breaks down, however, whenever one or the other decides to do something fancy.