Riposte Strike for BS Daggermaster

[Istar]

I will start off with my second at-will as Piercing Strike.
But am thinking at Level 11 to change to Riposte Strike.

Because as a Brutal Scoundrel Daggermaster:

A. I will have high Strength so a free Strength vs AC attack is not actually "too" bad instead of my Dexterity.

B. The high Daggermaster 18 to 20 crit range (1/7)

The Riposte Strike doesnt do a huge amount of damage BUT it still gives me 1/7 chance of critting with my stack of Crit feats.

1. "Surprise Knockdown" (If I knock him down on his turn I will possibly have CA against him on my turn)

2. Magic weapon crit features

3. "Devasting Critical" 1-10 damage

4. "Rogue Weapon Mastery" 2-8 damage

5. The Daggermaster power of getting CA from a critical

6. "Triumphant Attack"

Can anyone see any problems with my plan ?

p.s.
"Deft Strike" is my other one as I am an Elf and will get "Fleet Footed" to put my movement at 8, and the plus 2 gives me 10.
Plus I will have "Far Throw".
So that gives me a total reach of 17 squares for throwing daggers initially, and then closer hand to hand combat.

 

[Pickles JG]

I find it hard to give up the accuracy boost from Piercing Strike. Deft strike is most useful for bouncing out of cover to make ranged attacks with CA or to get that bit of extra movement to flank. I think a speed 8 elf will not need the latter. So in summary if you are going to be melee oriented you should consider swapping out deft strike instead of piercing strike. Of course you can retrain easily.

My Rogue is human & I get a lot of use from both Piercing & Deft strike but the other one is less useful. Riposte strike is best if you are duelling someone so they are definitely attacking you but mostly I like to have a defender marking my target which makes this a bit less likely. If you do not have Piercing Strike of course you will not be tempted to use it for its accuracy so will get more mileage out of Riposte.

All the crit stuff looks fun but it is pretty chancy even with daggermaster. The crit feats increase your damage far less than Weapon focus, Backstabber or accuracy feats on average so they are not the optimised first choices. OTOH if you like to see big damage spikes & fly by the seat of your pants then have at.

I think a Tempest would be the best Daggermaster crit seeker as he will make a lot more attack rolls with Dual attack & many multi target encounter & dailies, but that's not going to stop my rogue taking it.

You might like to look to Knockout blow for a 9th level power as it guarantees a crit (via Coup de Grace). Also multi target attack powers will increase your crit chances - there are a few burst available.

 

[Istar]

Cheers Pickles thats very helpful advice.

Yes I forgot about the automatic critcal from Knockout - I assume you mean by using an AP for an extra attack, or the enemy not making his save next round ?
That would work very well for me with all my crit feats
Especially on some of the higher level powrs also that provide special effects on a Crit.

So what sort of accuracy boost can you get from PIercing Strike ???
I have been told an average of +2 ?
Obviosuly it works well against heavily armoured tanks and certain monster types, I am new to 4e so I dnt know what will work.

Maybe I could give up Deft Strike at level 11 as you say, as I will have 8 speed.
As Deft strike is only +2 movement whereas the other 2 are extra atatcks and better To Hit ability.

Very good advice.

P.s. Whats this mean "Tempest would be the best Daggermaster crit seeker"

Is Tempest a race ?

 

[Pickles JG]

Cheers Pickles thats very helpful advice.

Yes I forgot about the automatic critcal from Knockout - I assume you mean by using an AP for an extra attack, or the enemy not making his save next round ?
That would work very well for me with all my crit feats
Especially on some of the higher level powrs also that provide special effects on a Crit.

So what sort of accuracy boost can you get from PIercing Strike ???
I have been told an average of +2 ?
Obviosuly it works well against heavily armoured tanks and certain monster types, I am new to 4e so I dnt know what will work.

Maybe I could give up Deft Strike at level 11 as you say, as I will have 8 speed.
As Deft strike is only +2 movement whereas the other 2 are extra atatcks and better To Hit ability.

Very good advice.

P.s. Whats this mean "Tempest would be the best Daggermaster crit seeker"

Is Tempest a race ?

Either use an AP or hope the thing fails its save & noone steals your free critical .

Ref is on average 2 less than AC based on the DMG formulas. It can however be 5-6 less for Soldiers who have very high ACs. These are where it is most appreciated as they are the hardest to hit so the bonus is worth most (er I mean +2 would be worth more against a Soldier anyway but you get +5!!! Sometimes ..). I find it hard not to piercing strike if I might get a bonus to hit, especially since it's very rare for REF to exceed AC (unlike FORT). This may be my issue - you should see what works for you.

I knew I should have said Tempest Fighter. It is a new fighter build from Martial Power that dual wields & prefers off hand weapons. As they dual wield they get to roll more attacks so have more crit chances.

 

[Cadfan]

Riposte Strike is primarily a defensive power. Once you use it, the monster you hit may not attack you for fear of being stabbed a second time.

 

[MrAlgothi]

Either use an AP or hope the thing fails its save & noone steals your free critical .

Minor action attacks like Low Slash are great for this also, Knockout, Low Slash for a critical hit and if you haven't yet moved, turn your move to a minor and Critical Opportunity.

All the crit stuff looks fun but it is pretty chancy even with daggermaster. The crit feats increase your damage far less than Weapon focus, Backstabber or accuracy feats on average so they are not the optimised first choices. OTOH if you like to see big damage spikes & fly by the seat of your pants then have at.

I personally love optimizing criticals as a DaggerMaster. Since your critical chance is 1:6.66, if your critical hits deal enough damage they may be equal to the feats you mention. Bloodiron dagger and a War Ring, Devastating Critical and Rogue Weapon Mastery in conjunction deal a huge amount of critical damage. With a +3 Bloodiron dagger and these feats, your crits will be doing 5d10+2d4 extra damage. That is 32.5 extra damage on average down twice (again on your next turn thanks to the Bloodiron property.)

Later in your character's career you can take epic destinies with powers that trigger off criticals (Deadly Trickster Control, for example) or epic feats like Epic Resurgance to really make a critical hit a game changer.

 

[chitzk0i]

An unconscious enemy does not give an automatic critical on your next attack. See Coup de Grace on page 288. It's a standard action that allows you to use an attack power you know. If you hit with the attack, it's an automatic critical.

 

[Istar]

Minor action attacks like Low Slash are great for this also, Knockout, Low Slash for a critical hit and if you haven't yet moved, turn your move to a minor and Critical Opportunity.



I personally love optimizing criticals as a DaggerMaster. Since your critical chance is 1:6.66, if your critical hits deal enough damage they may be equal to the feats you mention. Bloodiron dagger and a War Ring, Devastating Critical and Rogue Weapon Mastery in conjunction deal a huge amount of critical damage. With a +3 Bloodiron dagger and these feats, your crits will be doing 5d10+2d4 extra damage. That is 32.5 extra damage on average down twice (again on your next turn thanks to the Bloodiron property.)

Later in your character's career you can take epic destinies with powers that trigger off criticals (Deadly Trickster Control, for example) or epic feats like Epic Resurgance to really make a critical hit a game changer.

We should compare stats, builds and feats.
Sounds like you are doing exactly what I want to do.

 

[MrAlgothi]

An unconscious enemy does not give an automatic critical on your next attack. See Coup de Grace on page 288. It's a standard action that allows you to use an attack power you know. If you hit with the attack, it's an automatic critical.

This was missed by my entire table over several reads. Not too bad, regardless, it just means that you need to hold on to both Knock Out and an Action Point until you are ready to deal this combo.

We should compare stats, builds and feats.
Sounds like you are doing exactly what I want to do.

Its a fairly simple idea. Bloodiron and Daggermaster's huge critical chance is the foundation of the idea, every thing else is just built on this principal. Anything that adds extra crit damage shines here like flame bracers, which add 1d6/1d10/2d6 extra fire damage on criticals. Also, the War Rings daily ability after a milestone to max critical damage really cranks up the damage when you want something dead, assault boots are nice if you are not a Brutal Scoundrel or just want to save on a feat(surprise knockdown).

 

[Istar]

Riposte Strike is primarily a defensive power. Once you use it, the monster you hit may not attack you for fear of being stabbed a second time.

Your trying very hard to convince me to take it arent you Cadfan