D&D 5E Rise of Tiamat with a mostly not-Good party - looking for hooks

[evilbob]

Looking for advice from folks who are familiar with the adventure. We finished Horde and had a good time; we started Tiamat and I realized that the adventure basically takes for granted that the characters are Good Guys. My players aren't: they're mostly against the cult but they're primarily in it for treasure and adventure - they're not really concerned with "saving the world" for its own sake. I'm usually better at getting the players motivated, but other than the Lord's Alliance just straight-up paying the characters (and I'm not sure what price would be fair?), I'm having trouble coming up with good character hooks to get them into the Rise of Tiamat. The hooks we had for Horde were great - but they didn't really extend into the next adventure, and I'm realizing Tiamat sort of takes for granted that "saving the world" would be the next hook.

I have a few ready down the line - they have a great reason to interject into the Misty/High forest, and hilariously this group will have ZERO problems recruiting Red Wizards and devils - but why would they necessarily care about good dragons? Or tracking down cultist leaders that haven't affected them personally? Or saving any towns other than the one they are currently in?

Edit:
I guess I'm not good at writing questions because so far I could summarize the responses as "just give up." This isn't an "evil characters" problem, or a "bad players" problem, this is just a DM asking for clever hooks for a party that isn't motivated by "save the world" in order to help drive engagement, which I'm anticipating as potentially becoming an issue. I've left my original post below but if you're just now coming to the thread feel free to skip.

Looking for advice from folks who are familiar with the adventure. Experienced DM with 4 not-new players. We finished Horde and had a good time; Tiamat started with the predictable confusion and jumble of a module that has been critiqued to death so I won't do it here. But as we stumbled along, I realized that the adventure basically takes for granted that the characters are Good Guys. This was fine in League Play because that was a rule: no Bad Guys. (Except some LE exceptions.) In regular play that's a little trickier. I have a straight-up NE dead-raising cleric, a N-trending-CN druid, a ranger I would describe as a professional mercenary (probably LE), and one poor monk who started LG but is basically trending N and overlooking terrible things to match the group's vibe. Which is fun as hell! But when it came time for the people of Waterdeep to elevate these heroes and make them the standard-bearers to unite the disparate factions... They (true to characters!) took this somewhere between Not My Problem and (literally) How Much Do We Get Paid. Even the monk asked for concessions, lol. (These are the same players that also universally refused to join any faction. Which are described as having "zero drawbacks." I eventually convinced the cleric to join the Network - excellent fit - and the monk to join the Order - not a bad fit.)

Which... besides disappointing Leosin, means they're mostly just going to investigate the Draakhorn because otherwise the plot stops. I'm usually better at getting the players motivated, but other than the Lord's Alliance just straight-up paying the characters (and I'm not sure what price would be fair?), I'm having trouble coming up with good hooks. Especially since many of the chapters end in railroady frustrations for the party, which I could see dampening their mood to "help" even more.

I have a few ready down the line - they have a great reason to interject into the Misty/High forest, and hilariously this group will have ZERO problems recruiting Red Wizards and devils - but why would they necessarily care about good dragons? Or tracking down cultists? Or saving any towns other than the one they are currently in?

I know, I know: I allowed this to happen! Lots of ways to have played this differently, and this is like Reason Two of why Don't Play Bad Guys is heavily suggested in the DMG (Reason One is because they tend to kill each other). Happily taking suggestions on how to dig myself back out of this hole.

 

[pukunui]

My suggestion would be to hit pause on trying to get your players on-side in game and just have a frank discussion with them. Tell them you're not sure how to continue this adventure with these characters. Ask them if they can come up with in-game reasons for their characters to continue this adventure.

If you can't get your players on board, it's only going to get worse.

If your players are unable or unwilling to shift gears themselves, you may need to ask them to create new characters who are motivated to run the adventure or just give up on this one and play something else. Maybe a portal opens and the PCs are shunted into another world where they can run amok to their hearts' delight.

The point is: talk to your players. You need their buy-in for this kind of stuff.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't think this is a you problem, so much as this is a module problem.

Are there not ways that the player characters could figure out that something's wrong and go poke around there -- if only to loot an abandoned village or something -- instead?

It'd be more work, since the adventures are structured on rails, as I understand it, but this would give the players the autonomy to do what they want and not worry about any silly factions who only really connect with players because they're required to.

 

[MerricB]

Looking for advice from folks who are familiar with the adventure. Experienced DM with 4 not-new players. We finished Horde and had a good time; Tiamat started with the predictable confusion and jumble of a module that has been critiqued to death so I won't do it here. But as we stumbled along, I realized that the adventure basically takes for granted that the characters are Good Guys.

I know, I know: I allowed this to happen! Lots of ways to have played this differently, and this is like Reason Two of why Don't Play Bad Guys is heavily suggested in the DMG (Reason One is because they tend to kill each other). Happily taking suggestions on how to dig myself back out of this hole.

It's on you and your players. Playing evil is an awful idea in most published adventures - they don't support it. Only in the case when it's an adventure environment mostly without plot does evil work. Any time you get together to play a published adventure, you should make sure people have characters that want to be in the adventure.

Rise of Tiamat, though, assumes good characters less than most. What it assumes are characters who want to stop the Cult of the Dragon, and it then offers actually a fairly wide range of possibilities and consequences for various actions. Want to ally with the Red Wizards of Thay? You can do that - even though it annoys the Harpers and Order of the Gauntlet.

(The adventure offers the opportunity to get Thay on your side. In two of the three groups I ran through the adventure, they didn't even go to Thay, because they knew they didn't want to work with them. But I can see a more evil-inclined group going with Thay and not getting the aid of the Good Dragons! It works!)

In fact, ambitious evil characters would love the set-up in Rise of Tiamat! Get all the factions dancing to their tune? Fantastic! So many possibilities.

But your problem isn't "evil characters". It is players who have deliberately made characters who are disengaged. These are characters that in a full sandbox game would end up not being hired by anyone since they're mercenary losers. This is the one adventure that actually treats characters like the powers they become (so many high-level adventures have no rulers listening to them at all), and they've decided to throw that opportunity away.

Just stop. It'll be better for everyone.

 

[Tonguez]

Could you go the route of giving your players the role of the 'rival adventure party' who are in it for profit and power while the actual heroes are interferring with their ambitions?

or generally make it the PCs problem, give them a reason to have a grudge against the Cult or have them caught up in a random raid

yeah otherwise theres no adventure if the players dont want it...

 

[ECMO3]

I think Zhentarim are an option ... and like modern day politicians, they don't need to actually be heroes, they just need to convince the masses they are heroes.

 

[evilbob]

I think Zhentarim are an option ... and like modern day politicians, they don't need to actually be heroes, they just need to convince the masses they are heroes.

Thanks for the response. I think this group is also not really motivated by "glory." But I do think the Black Network might be my best lever at the moment; they could suggest the party play up their role because it would make them indispensable to powerful people.

Everyone else:
I've updated my original post to help focus down on exactly what I'm asking.

 

[Staffan]

Looking for advice from folks who are familiar with the adventure. We finished Horde and had a good time; we started Tiamat and I realized that the adventure basically takes for granted that the characters are Good Guys. My players aren't: they're mostly against the cult but they're primarily in it for treasure and adventure - they're not really concerned with "saving the world" for its own sake.

"Saving the world" should usually be enough even for characters who aren't good guys. In the words of the Tick: "That's where I keep all my stuff!"

 

[Umbran]

"Saving the world" should usually be enough even for characters who aren't good guys. In the words of the Tick: "That's where I keep all my stuff!"

I was just about to make the same reference.

Your treasure isn't worth a lot in a Tiamat-controlled world, folks.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The characters might not be invested in "fighting against evil" for its own sake, but they must be invested in something.
What do they want, and how might the cult activity be interfering in that?

They might not oppose the cult just because it is evil, but they aren't going to allow it to stomp all over their turf just because it is evil either.