D&D 5E Rise of Tiamat with a mostly not-Good party - looking for hooks

[MerricB]

I was just about to make the same reference.

Your treasure isn't worth a lot in a Tiamat-controlled world, folks.

It's the argument that my players have made to a lot of the bosses in Vecna: Eve of Ruin. (Tiamat did not want Vecna taking her stuff).

Cheers,
Merric

 

[jayoungr]

If they're treasure-motivated, there is the titular Hoard of the Dragon Queen. That's a powerful lever to use to get them to play ball with the factions if they want to find out where it is and how to get it.

I was just going to suggest this. If they're motivated by material rewards, the hoard that is being assembled at the Well of Dragons would be a score beyond their wildest dreams. Could be part of their negotiations with the various other groups, too: "And remember, we get first choice of the treasure."

 

[evilbob]

What? They've already been to the Well of Dragons and stolen the accumulated wealth that will be Tiamat's hoard? Or do you just mean the smaller hoard that the cult was collecting to add to the bigger hoard?

The smaller horde in the ice castle.

 

[evilbob]

I was just going to suggest this. If they're motivated by material rewards, the hoard that is being assembled at the Well of Dragons would be a score beyond their wildest dreams. Could be part of their negotiations with the various other groups, too: "And remember, we get first choice of the treasure."

That kind of ask is actually harder than you'd think, especially given all the factions vying for the same prize. It doesn't really help everyone work together when the so-called leaders are pushing ahead for their share first.

But: you're not wrong.

 

[jayoungr]

That kind of ask is actually harder than you'd think, especially given all the factions vying for the same prize. It doesn't really help everyone work together when the so-called leaders are pushing ahead for their share first.

So maybe they're not open about wanting it--then the challenge becomes how to heist away all this treasure (or as much as they can take) after the battle, before the others know what's happening. Could be a fun epilogue to the campaign. It would make them legendary in criminal circles, if that appeals to this group at all.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Rise of Tiamat, though, assumes good characters less than most. What it assumes are characters who want to stop the Cult of the Dragon, and it then offers actually a fairly wide range of possibilities and consequences for various actions. Want to ally with the Red Wizards of Thay? You can do that - even though it annoys the Harpers and Order of the Gauntlet.

(The adventure offers the opportunity to get Thay on your side. In two of the three groups I ran through the adventure, they didn't even go to Thay, because they knew they didn't want to work with them. But I can see a more evil-inclined group going with Thay and not getting the aid of the Good Dragons! It works!)

I was just about to add this!

So my quick-fix suggestion @evilbob is to have

• Lord Neverember pay-off some of the evil dragons not to answer the Draakhorn call and have the PC deliver the bribes - you could revisit the twin blacks in Mere of the Dead Men (HotDQ);
• Like @MerricB said work with Thay rather than the Council as the primary benefactors. Let the PCs be contacted by remnants of the Cult that believe in the older ideology (dracoliches) and have them sell their dragon phylacteries to Thay to create dracoliches. Pick up Mission to Thay. The PCs can become the fence for these phylacteries to Thay, and perhaps even help Thay against the rebel Red Wizards. Perhaps THE TWIST being Szass Tam is seeking to raise Tiamat as a dracolich in the final encounter? [Episode 8];
• Have Luskan via Host Tower operatives reach out looking to the PCs (they're trying to get a seat on the Council by offering information about the Draakhorn) to rescue Maccath the Crimson [Episode 2];
• Alagarthas (older sibling to Neronvain, the Green Wyrmspeaker) finds out about his brother's secret and so orders the PCs to deal with him in secret, promising some of the rewards in Chuth's lair [Episode 4];
• Have the Zhentarim, unhappy with the state of affairs at the Council meetings, seek their services to lay claim to the Xonthal's Tower before any of the other factions [ Episode 7];
• They could capture the White Dragon Mask from Varram in the Tomb of Diderius to sell it Thay or if the Zhentarim have it, negotiate with them to give it to Thay [Episode 3];
• You could have them deliver the items negotiated at the Wyrm Council, thus meeting several of the Dragons individually, merge it with an incident with one of the Cult retaliations, and have them stand trial to try prove their innocence if a good dragon is killed, or try mend relationships between the Council and the Wyrms [Episode 6]
• The Devilish Demands (Page 7) will be interesting to run with a non-good party;
• Don't worry about the council scoresheet, let them be part of the special Thay contingent that attacks the Well of Dragons;

There are so many more hooks one could use, but these should be enough to get you started!

 

[GuardianLurker]

OK. @AnotherGuy had some very good hooks, but those won't be enough, unless you plan on running a series of hooks, or can do something to engage them further.

I prefer to work backwards from motivations and outcomes. One of the big outcomes that the adventure doesn't spend time on is why the Devils/Baatezu are working against her. So, if you remember the FR Lore, AO (the overgod) forbids any of the gods from claiming the Prime Material as their domain (in the living area/Kingdom sense). This is for a number of reasons, but underlying all of them is that the Prime Material's inhabitants (those inconvenient mortals) are the ultimate source of all of the gods' power (with some exceptions) and mucking with that is a BIG NO-NO.

Tiamat, who depending on you beliefs about multiversal structures, may also be Takehesis - the evil goddess from Dragonlance - and not just a really really very very powerful dragon, is planning on physically incarnating on the Prime Material. This will let her boggart a very significant chunk of that worship power right off the bat, possibly get her a "purer" source of worship power, and basically give her the ultimate "win" in the deity competition.

She's succeeding in her plot because AO's ban is still in force, and frankly, most evil deities (most deities, really) aren't the subtle sorts, preferring to directly smite their problems. So enter the devil's ploys, and the Zhentarim.

Now, they'd really like to pull in the classic heroic do-gooders, as it's much less problematic, and works within the general rules. But making sure she doesn't win is a "MUCH* bigger concern. They (Tiamat's opponents) are prepared to sacrifice quite a bit, to make sure that doesn't happen. There's a lot they're prepared to offer up. Tiamat's Ritual Hoard is the least of it. Ditto for Divine/Infernal favors (even VERY large ones).

How about instructions on how to pervert some of that ritual power to make one or more of the party Immortal? Or Ascend? There's also the fact that they'll want a Hit Squad to remove Tiamat from the equation permanently - she can't be allowed to try this again, and others need to be dissuaded from copying her. How would they like to have her primary Hoard? Or any of the other implied rewards from becoming a God-Destroyer? (As opposed to God-Killers who "merely" kill a deities avatar.)

BTW, the god's aren't going to mess around with this. If the characters aren't attracted enough by "Kill Tiamat, take all her stuff" on their own, they'll make those offers directly and succinctly. They'll also make clear what the penalty is for refusing them - complete and utter obliteration of the characters and their souls.

At that point, if the players are still refusing, you won't really have a choice - the campaign is a non-starter, and all you can do is get out. And you should probably ask your players why they refused, because the rewards should have been pretty tempting.

But that's getting way, way, way, ahead of the battle. The Devil's Rewards side-quest is a solid place to start the offers.

 

[evilbob]

• Lord Neverember pay-off some of the evil dragons not to answer the Draakhorn call and have the PC deliver the bribes - you could revisit the twin blacks in Mere of the Dead Men (HotDQ);

I especially love this idea because of how this party ended up dealing with the swamp castle (fully backed the lizards, who eventually started taking the remaining treasure to the dragon), so there's already a relationship there. Also, that's a dragon Neverember would likely be aware of, as it lives far too close to his road reconstruction project for him to be comfortable about it. My question is: how much would you need to pay to bribe a dragon to sit out the fight?

On one hand, these black dragons in particular don't want to fight anyway - they're already super paranoid about their secret - but they also wouldn't let that sort of impression get out, because then there might be questions about why. Additionally, I'd play Neverember as giving the party X amount of gold, and telling them to negotiate with the dragon and keep the remainder as their fee - or kill the thing and keep it all. He would be aware, though, of how much a small mercenary army might cost, and have done the math on how much he'd have to pay a group to kill the dragon vs. how much to bribe it, and we're assuming the amount he gives the party is the lowest of these numbers. The party is also aware that 5000g is an average cost for "rare" magic items and thanks to the cult's horde they are up on cash.

3000g? It almost feels low but on the other hand it's a massive amount in Faerun.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I especially love this idea because of how this party ended up dealing with the swamp castle (fully backed the lizards, who eventually started taking the remaining treasure to the dragon), so there's already a relationship there. Also, that's a dragon Neverember would likely be aware of, as it lives far too close to his road reconstruction project for him to be comfortable about it. My question is: how much would you need to pay to bribe a dragon to sit out the fight?

Yeah, my table also assisted the lizardfolk and hardly dealt with the castle at all (but that is a long story).

Just a couple of ideas that you can flesh out for what suits your table and their story in all this
Details of Neverember

• He eventually gets replaced as Open Lord of Waterdeep and so loses that title between the 1st and 2nd Council meeting, so there is likely to be some tension at the Council. I recommend you highlight that whether at the meetings or behind the scenes;
• It would make sense that he would likely know of the black dragon residing within the Mere and therefore act on it;
• In Waterdeep: Dragon Heist he embezzled some monies when he was in a position of power, so there is that tie-in. He is not entirely lawful "-and to do what must be done even when it is distasteful" (Page 14 of RoT). He is also the person to reach out of the Zhentarim to bring them into the fold much to the dislike of some other council members; and
• Bribing does not necessarily mean gold. The dragons may want (a) tributes/concessions - fresh livestock deliveries, off-limit Mere areas - or (b) items, such as a Tome or a Ring of Myrkul

Voaraghamanthar may have other things he wants the PCs to acquire for him. He wants Borngray and the cultists at Castle Naerytar out of the way. He wants to acquire a book held somewhere in the castle called the Dark Sermons of Strongor Bonebinder. He wants a ring held by Borngray, one of the five Rings of Myrkul. If the PCs agree to give him these things, he will aid them through Snapjaw in getting inside the castle and learning its secrets.

Spoiler: My Campaign

I did a whole side hustle story diving into the lore in my campaign with an entombed beholder (disintegration eye stalk being destroyed) in a partly submerged temple, feasting on Myrkul's essence within the Mere (This goes back to the Time of Troubles). They killed the beholder and the deific ectoplasm which had been consumed by the beholder awashed the PCs when it burst in death, elevating them past 9th level, which is a capstone normally in my setting.
Neverember announced at one of the meetings that he bribed the dragon of the Mere with a Ring of Myrkul. This created quite a scene at the Council for our table.

There are a great many chromatic dragons within Faerun - I would recommend Wyrms of the North if you would like to incorporate others. Even as a background you could have Leosin, being a foremost dracologist espouse his knowledge about which dragons may answer the call of the Draakhorn as some cool colour at a council meeting or to do some foreshadowing for what they may face at the Well of Dragons.

The great thing about your table is the PCs could be set up as anti-heroes. Imagine there could be a primary team made up of faction agents that do various council missions but may not like your PCs and vice versa, HOWEVER various council members may be taking the opportunity to employ the PCs behind the scenes to get an edge or to "fix" something voted for by the other councillors. Love the direction of your table - so much creative fun to be had!

If it isn't obvious I love this AP because of its potential, it is also disappointing that WotC decided not to improve on it - TWICE!

On one hand, these black dragons in particular don't want to fight anyway - they're already super paranoid about their secret - but they also wouldn't let that sort of impression get out, because then there might be questions about why.

100% exactly!