D&D 5E ritual casting overpowered?

[shoak1]

Am I missing something or is ritual casting incredibly overpowered? It eliminates the aspect of limited resources that is so crucial to the game. A 10 minute cast time effectively precludes their use in combat, but out of combat, you gain virtually unlimited access to a plethora of abilities, some of which are obviously useful and others which are less obvious but also powerful. Many of the ritual spells have durations of 1 hour, 8 hrs, or even the whole day, allowing virtual continuous use.

Here are just a few of the uses we have found in our game:
1) water breathing/water walk - for the party w/a ritual caster, water=land, continiously, at will
2) rary's telepathic bond - permanent telepathy for whole party, continuously
3) beast sense - unlimited safe scouting
4) commune w/nature/speak w/animals - unlimited continuous knowledge of your area
5) detect magic/poison/plants animals - unlimited sense of these everywhere, any time
6) leomunds hut - never worry about shelter again
7) tenser's disc - carrying capacity limitations? nahhh
8) meld into stone - so many uses I cant even count
9) alarm - cast a dozen or so of these in a large radius around your camp, virtually eliminate surprise
10) animal messenger - virtually unlimited communication over vast distances at will
11) magic mouth - how about 1000 of these surrounding your lair? permanent until dispelled
12) unseen servant - forget about traps

 

[seebs]

They are intended to be powerful, but they still chew up significant time, and not being able to do them in combat type circumstances seems to adequately limit things.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

It is not overpowered, but it is evidence of the intended power scale of 5th edition - which is to say that they are working exactly as intended (i.e. you are choosing between spending a spell slot to complete these spells in less time or not, taking 1 minute or 11 for identify - not having to choose whether to cast one of these or a combat-focused or otherwise more generally useful spell of equal level, casting identify or mage armor, and the DM isn't having to worry about what happens when they plan, for example, an underwater adventure because the party knows water breathing and the party hasn't actually got it prepared or has spent all the appropriate level of spell slots when they arrive at the time when casting the spell would actually be useful).

 

[shoak1]

They are intended to be powerful, but they still chew up significant time, and not being able to do them in combat type circumstances seems to adequately limit things.

how so? Ritual casting (1 feat) grants the equivalent of water breathing for the whole party for the whole day at the cost of a 10 min cast. By moving 15% slower through an area, the whole party gets continuous telepathic link, and if they move 10% slower they get continuous knowledge of the area for miles around them at all times. At the cost of 10 mins, they get an invisible force shielded shelter every night. By moving 15% slower they get someone to spring traps for them. Move 50% slower and you have continuous magic detection.

How does this change the world of d and d? Any kingdom with even limited resources could completely eliminate banditry for instance. Water walking trading groups w/tensers disc become as common as ships. Would there be ordinances against massive overuse of magic mouths? Every castle would have its troops telepathically linked - how does that change combat? Animal messengers running to and fro continously become as common as trees. Magically hiding anything becomes virtually useless. And think about common outdoor encounters (the surprise night ambush, the ambush in the mountain pass, the hidden magical door in the tree) and how unlimited ritual spells trivializes them.

 

[DEFCON 1]

How does this change the world of d and d? Any kingdom with even limited resources could completely eliminate banditry for instance.

No one can EVER try and justify the "world of D&D" with any sort of logic when you take 9th level magic into account. It's ridiculous to even try. 10 minute rituals are but the tip of the iceberg to the kind of magitechical revolution EVERY D&D world would really have had with the power of magic and peoples and monsters who could live for thousands of years.

You have to handwave it and accept the illogic. Because that's the ONLY way you'd have magic at the power of 9th level spells coupled with "fantasy" societies who are still stuck in the Middle Ages.

 

[Ovinomancer]

how so? Ritual casting (1 feat) grants the equivalent of water breathing for the whole party for the whole day at the cost of a 10 min cast. By moving 15% slower through an area, the whole party gets continuous telepathic link, and if they move 10% slower they get continuous knowledge of the area for miles around them at all times. At the cost of 10 mins, they get an invisible force shielded shelter every night. By moving 15% slower they get someone to spring traps for them. Move 50% slower and you have continuous magic detection.

How does this change the world of d and d? Any kingdom with even limited resources could completely eliminate banditry for instance. Water walking trading groups w/tensers disc become as common as ships. Would there be ordinances against massive overuse of magic mouths? Every castle would have its troops telepathically linked - how does that change combat? Animal messengers running to and fro continously become as common as trees. Magically hiding anything becomes virtually useless. And think about common outdoor encounters (the surprise night ambush, the ambush in the mountain pass, the hidden magical door in the tree) and how unlimited ritual spells trivializes them.

You either must be reading different spells (how does a castle have their entire garrison have Rary's -- where do they find that many casters of appropriate level with nothing better to do?) or you have bad guys just stand around during the rituals. "We'll kill you al -- oh, sorry, didn't see the ritual. We'll just wait over here and come kill you when you're done." The guys walking on water with their tensor's disks must have really fun times in storms or some form of protection against sharks taking advantage of the buffet line. Also, I suppose parties wake up every so often to cast a ritual so that they aren't ambushed? I'm assuming you mean the alarm spell there, and, if so, check out it's actual area of effect. A slug can make it across that and attack in one round. Maybe two. Okay, three.

I think you're panicking over something you've never actually seen in play.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

how so? Ritual casting (1 feat) grants the equivalent of water breathing for the whole party for the whole day at the cost of a 10 min cast. By moving 15% slower through an area, the whole party gets continuous telepathic link, and if they move 10% slower they get continuous knowledge of the area for miles around them at all times. At the cost of 10 mins, they get an invisible force shielded shelter every night. By moving 15% slower they get someone to spring traps for them. Move 50% slower and you have continuous magic detection.

The thing is, clerics and wizards already get ritual casting for free. If you have a party with a cleric and a wizard in it, then this feat doesn't really bring anything to the table. The expectation for how the game is intended to be played has already taken all of this into consideration - at a certain point, the party doesn't have to worry about shelter; at a certain point, the party can walk on water. If the DM's world doesn't want to follow those assumptions, then those spells don't exist in that world.

What the feat does is that it allows a party to keep up with expectations, even if you don't have a cleric and wizard in the party. It gives you some flexibility in party composition, without entirely shooting yourself in the foot.

How does this change the world of d and d? Any kingdom with even limited resources could completely eliminate banditry for instance. Water walking trading groups w/tensers disc become as common as ships. Would there be ordinances against massive overuse of magic mouths? Every castle would have its troops telepathically linked - how does that change combat? Animal messengers running to and fro continously become as common as trees. Magically hiding anything becomes virtually useless. And think about common outdoor encounters (the surprise night ambush, the ambush in the mountain pass, the hidden magical door in the tree) and how unlimited ritual spells trivializes them.

A kingdom with limited resources does not necessarily include a spellcaster capable of casting Water Walking or Leomund's Tiny Hut, and even if it does, it's unlikely to have enough such spellcasters to provide one to every group. Spellcasters don't grow on trees, and high-level spellcasters capable of casting those rituals are significantly less common. Many rituals only last ten minutes or an hour, so a single spellcaster might be able to cover a couple of dozen individuals by spending an hour to ritually cast these spells.

In short, the relative scarcity of powerful spellcasters means that the ten-minute casting time prevents casual use on any sort of large scale.

 

[shoak1]

You either must be reading different spells (how does a castle have their entire garrison have Rary's -- where do they find that many casters of appropriate level with nothing better to do?) or you have bad guys just stand around during the rituals. "We'll kill you al -- oh, sorry, didn't see the ritual. We'll just wait over here and come kill you when you're done." The guys walking on water with their tensor's disks must have really fun times in storms or some form of protection against sharks taking advantage of the buffet line. Also, I suppose parties wake up every so often to cast a ritual so that they aren't ambushed? I'm assuming you mean the alarm spell there, and, if so, check out it's actual area of effect. A slug can make it across that and attack in one round. Maybe two. Okay, three.

I think you're panicking over something you've never actually seen in play.

You seem to not be fully thinking this thru. I'll give a few more details, but the point is that it is the unlimited resource aspect that is the issue. These are just a few of the exploits - a min-maxer spending a few hours thinking about it is going to come up w/a much greater number of exploits from something like this.

ambush - we set up camp, ritual guy spends 2 hours ritual casting magic mouth 7 times and leomunds hut once (while another guy cooks food, another sets up tents, etc), anyone steps within 170' and mouth screams.
sharks: innumerable counters, such as...uhhh...metal boots?
storms: We know the storm is coming remember? so we sink down to the bottom using water breathing (the cargo is in boxes), and then leomunds tiny hut, wait out storm. If we had a ship we wouldn't be making any headway either, and now we avoid danger of sinking ship
castle: if large scale assault, the attacker will need to prepare, and I have time to cast telepathic bond among enough guards to make communication be the same as if they all had it. if small scale assault, I dont have as many guards, so i need less time to cast

 

[shoak1]

Let's put this another way - go look at a dozen or so published (web or official) outdoor/underdark adventures (I did btw) and see how many have major obstacles neutralized just by the exploits I pointed out above.

 

[Ovinomancer]

You seem to not be fully thinking this thru. I'll give a few more details, but the point is that it is the unlimited resource aspect that is the issue. These are just a few of the exploits - a min-maxer spending a few hours thinking about it is going to come up w/a much greater number of exploits from something like this.

ambush - we set up camp, ritual guy spends 2 hours ritual casting magic mouth 7 times and leomunds hut once (while another guy cooks food, another sets up tents, etc), anyone steps within 170' and mouth screams.

Magic mouths don't have a 170' detection range, it's 30 ft. Secondly, if you want them to scream, you have to scream bloody murder when you set the message. That surely won't attract attention. Thirdly, magic mouths have no special detection methods, nor even perception scores. They can only see things clearly seeable, so you can easily sneak by them (like an ambusher might).

Leomund's problem isn't that it's a ritual, it's that Leomund's Hut is one of the more powerful spells in the game. Just straight out casting it is a good use of resources.

sharks: innumerable counters, such as...uhhh...metal boots?

Heh, good luck, they eat anything. A metal boot's not even a speedbump to a shark.

storms: We know the storm is coming remember? so we sink down to the bottom using water breathing (the cargo is in boxes), and then leomunds tiny hut, wait out storm. If we had a ship we wouldn't be making any headway either, and now we avoid danger of sinking ship

How do you know it's coming? Leomund's Secret Weather Satellite(tm)? Heavy seas from storms can often precede storms by days for really powerful storms. I'm guessing you haven't spent much time at sea. 10' swells would wreak havoc on any attempt to walk across a sea, are not uncommon near storms (not even powerful ones, hurricanes can generate sustained swells of 50+' quite far from the storm), and can last for days depending on weather.

Good luck getting your cargo to the bottom. Boxes that are watertight tend to float.

Also, good luck avoiding sharks now that your clever metal boots are underwater.

castle: if large scale assault, the attacker will need to prepare, and I have time to cast telepathic bond among enough guards to make communication be the same as if they all had it. if small scale assault, I dont have as many guards, so i need less time to cast

Firstly, you have a 9th level caster around, and that's how you utlize his time. Okay. But what you have there is that caster spending 10 mins for each group of 8 soldiers. That's an hour for 48 guys, which can then only telepathically speak to each other within their 8 man groups -- not across all the others. Each casting is a separate group. And then you have to start all over again to get keep those same 48 guys in their telepathic 8 man groups. Oh, and they all have to be present for the entire casting, so they can stand guard for like 30-40 minutes in their cool telepathic state before it's time to rotate back to the ritual spot.

Surely the enemy is aware of this, and just hangs out a few days, wasting your 9th level casters time and having a good laugh.