Ritual: Identify Magic Item

[vic20]

Need???

Who says the treasure tables in the DMG are "perfectly balanced" in any way?

Nobody that I can see. Not sure what the quote marks are for...

 

[CapnZapp]

Free identification is a crap idea, because it doesn't contain the all-important "unless the DM says otherwise" clause.

<snip>

The idea was good, but the rule is horribly sloppy.

Actually, it does contain that clause. The second paragraph under the heading 'Identifying Magic Items' on page 223 of the PHB states:
"Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item."

Yup and when the DM does that, the players say "an arcana check, hey guys, this might be cursed".

It's a terrible rule. It's a gamist rule.

Hey guys, we are playing a game, so we get to know everything. Bah. That's how computer games work.

Exactly.

As I said, there is a rule, but it's horribly sloppy.

It almost begs for a rules argument to erupt (if the DM didn't catch this in time to make a houserule).

---

The rule should be written in a way as to enable the DM to not give information without the PCs even knowing there's something special about the item.

That is, if the rule specified that the DM should make a hidden roll (Arcana, History, whatever) then the DM could fudge this anytime he's given the party something "special".

This way the party wouldn't and couldn't know whether they just failed a routine check or if the item is "cursed, nonstandard or artifact". Which is exactly how it should have been.

Of course, such a version would still enable any DM who doesn't care about an item to divulge every scrap of information to the PCs straight away, so it isn't like anyone would lose out. This version would thus be strictly better, if it hadn't been for the sloppy designer.

(Except for players of the hardcore view "my DM would like to do stuff that isn't in my character's best interest; luckily the PHB keeps him in check", a segment of the player base I frankly don't give a damn about)

Edit: Have a look here before replying: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...ritual-identify-magic-item-2.html#post4805170

 

[CapnZapp]

All of these problems with free identification can be mitigated by a DM who's not actually ten house cats standing on top of each other and wearing a trench coat.

Yeah, but it would be nice if real DMs didn't have to fix the PHBs inane mistakes all the time.

And to make one thing clear (not directed to you in particular): As I said above, there is a solution that would satisfy you without making it harder for those DMs who just want to get on with the hacking'n'slashing. It isn't like I'm robbing anyone of options and simple gameplay they have today.

I just wish the designer spent five more minutes on a rule like this; would have saved hours of bickering around tables... "what do you mean I don't get to know everything about every standard item, it says so here on the page!!"

 

[CapnZapp]

However, I'm confused why you want to add a ritual to require identification that you have basically admitted would be annoyance for the vast majority of items, so that you can circumvent a restriction that has been pointed out has already been accounted for, so that players can't point out that the rules say something differently.

You want to ignore a rule to prevent players from pointing out that you are ignoring a rule? Isn't there a certain irony here?

The DM certainly has the power to make thees changes, however I think you should consider the change carefully. You can bet there was a lot of thought and a lot of debate that went on internally with WotC before they made this choice, and there just might be some wisdom in their choice (and again, they left the door open for you to ignore it in special cases already).

No.

They could have written the rule in such a way as to leave it up to the DM.

This way, you could have played the game exactly as you do today, but the OP wouldn't have had to start this thread, and we would not have to have this argument.

This is one rule I am certain contains no "nuggets of wisdom". A wise designer puts the DM in charge and designs rules that empower the DM to do his job.

A rule like this makes it harder on a subset of DMs - for no good reason. Again, the rule could have been more "wisely" written without hurting the "kick in the door" crowd at all.

 

[CapnZapp]

Here's the current version.

Identifying Magic Items
Most of the time, you can determine the properties and powers of a magic item during a short rest. In the
course of handling the item for a few minutes, you discover what the item is and what it does. You can
identify one magic item per short rest.
Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful
magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even
need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item.

Here's an infinitely better version (in my not-so-humble opinion):

Identifying Magic Items
The standard game assumes that most of the time, you can determine the properties and powers of a magic item during a short rest. In the course of handling the item for a few minutes, you automatically discover what the item is and what it does. You can identify one magic item per short rest.

In some campaigns some or all magic items might be a bit harder to identify (including cursed items, nonstandard items, or magical artifacts). Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of specific items.

See how I've empowered the DM while still making it clear what I as the designer views is the "default"?

Also note the subtle changes in wording to make several minor issues much more clear (to me)?
1) Do I discover the item automatically or did the rules just forget to specify some skill check?
2) Cursed or nonstandard items? But what about cursed items that are nonstandard?
3) Powerful magical artefacts? Aren't they all? What then about non-powerful artefacts, must they all be automatically discovered?
4) How come only "unique items" need rituals from quests? And what is a "unique item" anyway?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Here's the current version.



Here's an infinitely better version (in my not-so-humble opinion):

Identifying Magic Items
The standard game assumes that most of the time, you can determine the properties and powers of a magic item during a short rest. In the course of handling the item for a few minutes, you automatically discover what the item is and what it does. You can identify one magic item per short rest.

In some campaigns some or all magic items might be a bit harder to identify (including cursed items, nonstandard items, or magical artifacts). Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of specific items.

See how I've empowered the DM while still making it clear what I as the designer views is the "default"?

Also note the subtle changes in wording to make several minor issues much more clear (to me)?
1) Do I discover the item automatically or did the rules just forget to specify some skill check?
2) Cursed or nonstandard items? But what about cursed items that are nonstandard?
3) Powerful magical artefacts? Aren't they all? What then about non-powerful artefacts, must they all be automatically discovered?
4) How come only "unique items" need rituals from quests? And what is a "unique item" anyway?

No, I don't see it.

What exactly is your text improving? How does it provide the OP with a ritual to identify magic items? If that's fixing inane mistakes, what is a "normal" mistake? A pixel error or a small color mismatch due to a printer issue? And what is minor? A few molecules tunelling away from your print copy?

 

[CapnZapp]

How does it provide the OP with a ritual to identify magic items?

When I saw this thread, the discussion had moved past the original issue of the OPs ritual. Yes, that means I am off-topic for which I apologize. I was refuting those who claimed the RAW contained everything one would want as a DM.

As for the rest of your questions - if you genuinely can't see the improvements, feel free to ask again and I'll be happy to discuss. If, however, you're just making fun at my expense, I have no comment.

 

[Starfox]

As for the rest of your questions - if you genuinely can't see the improvements, feel free to ask again and I'll be happy to discuss. If, however, you're just making fun at my expense, I have no comment.

I'll bite. Not only can I not see any improvement, I really can't see any difference at all - empowering or not. I find your rule identical to the original one. I admit, I didn't read either rule word-by-word, but I saw no need as they both seemed pretty clear.

I'm not saying your rule is bad, just that its not a significant change. The change I can see is that you mention that certain campaigns might house-rule this. But house rules, by definition, don't need to be in the book.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In fact, a player centric view should be the given for a Players Handbook.

 

[Greatwyrm]

I'm actually trying to create this ritual because some players (and me) complained they don't like how it works in 4e, and I realized that incorporating something like an Identify ritual could really give their characters a more "logic" feeling on how an item works (rather than "In the course of handling the item for a few minutes, you discover what the item is and what it does" which makes sense for a sword, but makes NO sense for other types of items)

Rereading this thread, I just can't get past 'why?' on this part. Why is adding a monetary cost adding fun when you're still taking time and still making an Arcana check per the existing rules. Why does it make more sense to find out a sword is a Flaming weapon than to find out that bag holds more than it should?