Rituals Designs

For my own group, the time factor is as important as the money one - can they really afford the hour it takes to give everyone water walking?

Even the 10 minutes casting time is a big disinsentive - if it takes 10 minutes to bridge a gap, but an equivalent time just to climb down then back up the other side... what's the point.

I disagree, however, with your point that everyone should have ritual caster - for me, it seems wrong that a barbarian/fighter/thief should be able to do "magic" such as raise dead or use portal by default, without spending a feat to do so (therefore encouraging a story reason for them doing so). That said, I'm not adverse to making the ritual casting feat better - say bundling it with nature/healing/arcane/religion skills.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I disagree, however, with your point that everyone should have ritual caster - for me, it seems wrong that a barbarian/fighter/thief should be able to do "magic" such as raise dead or use portal by default, without spending a feat to do so (therefore encouraging a story reason for them doing so). That said, I'm not adverse to making the ritual casting feat better - say bundling it with nature/healing/arcane/religion skills.

As I said, individual rituals could (and, indeed, should) still have their own prerequisites. Raise Dead, for example, could well list "must use the Divine source" as a requirement. It's just requiring that feat for blanket access to any ritual that I think is wrong.

Besides, it's actually quite natural to think of barbarians performing all manner of rituals - the ritual blessing of warriors before a battle, the rituals of passage to manhood, the rituals associated with birth and death... ("Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it...")
 

I rather like goal #2. Want to create a low magic world in which ritual is the only way, to tap magical power? Done. Want to create a Fighter character who dabbles in magic, without becoming a full-fledged multi-archanist? Done. Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser? Done.

Getting this ability comes at a cost, both financial and in combat effectiveness. Generally speaking, only a real role player would go that route. A video game style button mashing min-maxer won't. So far I've been the only player, in our group, who consistently takes rituals AT ALL. Our Cleric didn't even think to buy Raise Dead, in our last campaign, while I maintained a list of more than 20 rituals by level 16.

I don't think that it infringes upon the purview of the spellcaster, at all. My Warlock used a sword, as his implement. Was that working the Fighter's side of the street? Why can't a Fighter know a Knock Spell, if he finds it useful? Less pigeon-holing is a good thing.
 

@ Nemesis Destiny - Well there should be SOME kind of financial cost, as you're effectively getting a one-use magic item, but limiting use should be through another mechanic, like hit point or healing surge cost. Actual casters could get 'free' castings, as Bards do.
 

I also love rituals for creating a less intimidating design space for DMs (than combat) that grounds novel campaign magic in a way that potentially expands the functionality of the party. I wish Wizards did more to encourage this, creating DM incentives to test and improve design skill sets while enhancing non-combat interactions in their games.
 

@ Nemesis Destiny - Well there should be SOME kind of financial cost, as you're effectively getting a one-use magic item, but limiting use should be through another mechanic, like hit point or healing surge cost. Actual casters could get 'free' castings, as Bards do.

Healing surge cost sounds like a viable idea, until it starts to force the 15 minute adventuring day. IME, Healing Surges above any other resource are the ones that "force" the group to find a place to hole up and rest.

The cost of rituals is too "high" because the resource expected to be used for them (gold) is the same as is expected to be used to keep up with magic items.

Making "Ritual Components" an addition to the treasure parcel mechanic seems to solve the majority of problems. A certain amount of "treasure" at every level is tied to rituals. In addition, giving out rituals books and scrolls as part of treasure also starts to incentivize players to actually use them.

In my campaign I'm exploring the idea of giving rituals out as part of leveling to the Wizard and the Cleric (one ritual every 2 levels). I'm exploring the idea of doing the same for the Fighter, Warlord and Ranger with Martial Practices, but I'm not entirely convinced.
 

Healing surge cost sounds like a viable idea, until it starts to force the 15 minute adventuring day. IME, Healing Surges above any other resource are the ones that "force" the group to find a place to hole up and rest.

The cost of rituals is too "high" because the resource expected to be used for them (gold) is the same as is expected to be used to keep up with magic items.

Making "Ritual Components" an addition to the treasure parcel mechanic seems to solve the majority of problems. A certain amount of "treasure" at every level is tied to rituals. In addition, giving out rituals books and scrolls as part of treasure also starts to incentivize players to actually use them.

In my campaign I'm exploring the idea of giving rituals out as part of leveling to the Wizard and the Cleric (one ritual every 2 levels). I'm exploring the idea of doing the same for the Fighter, Warlord and Ranger with Martial Practices, but I'm not entirely convinced.

Time pressure does wonders, to curb the 15 minute day. So does attacking the party with 'random' encounters, while they're waiting the 12 hours before they can actually rest. Of course I don't add such encounters to accrued experience, because having them is tantamount to 'failure.' Then there's actually having them fail at things, or have to fight much harder encounters either from the number of 'reinforcements' the opponents have, or the time that they have to obtain a terrain advantage. The 15 minute day is only a problem, if you let it be.

Ritual cost is too high, if you're tossing one out every five minutes of play. I found appropriate times to use them and even got to toss in a daily "Fastidiousness", for role playing reasons, starting as low as 5th level. I just counted the rituals, that my 20th level Warlock has; 39. Every session I would use a couple and I considered them important enough, that I picked them up whenever they became available to me. This was in a relatively cash starved campaign, somewhat below the stated economy. Granted, perhaps 25% of the rituals I'd use would be 'free' Bard rituals.

I've done the ritual components thing. The party sold them, at 25% of value. I've given ritual scrolls out. They're essentially the only rituals, that the Cleric possesses. Giving them out for levelling might not be a bad idea, overall, but it doesn't foster their use. If it doesn't kill or make things that kill, then I'm seeing little interest from my players.
 

I thought the article was a fairly honest appraisal of the ritual system, whether or not we approve of its design goals or execution.

Personally, my preference is to conceptually treat all magic as a ritual (slow, expensive, setting the baseline for what we think of as "effective", largely universal) and from there let classes or creatures with magical connections explore, for given subsets of magic, different facets of cheap, fast, and good (choose 2). For example, the first fireball ever cast wasn't necessarily done by a guy facing a few orcs, but perhaps the result of an involved process designed to break the grinding stalemate of an ancient siege. Although later refined into the elegant tool loved by arcane casters, there are still plenty of people around who want big fires, and don't need them within the next 6 seconds.

The absolute requirement for (tactical) combat magic is that fast casting, so the classes we traditionally think of as magical utilize an edifice (arcane training, divine favor, magical pacts) which achieve this. Perhaps anyone could raise the dead in principle, but the deities maintain the expressway for souls, and make sure they are all wearing their seatbelts. And certainly, "non-magical" characters will need to spend character resources in order to dabble. I like the idea of a rogue being able to cast a ritual which opens locked doors, but written in such a way that any rogue in a situation where he has to will feel he's already way beyond plan A. The wizard might be able to match a trained rogue's lock opening abilities by "upgrading" the ritual, but the opportunity cost to do so should be quite significant, and that usually means the wizard doesn't get there until higher levels anyway.

In my current game, which uses a homebrew system, the clerics can petition their deity for any ritual (i.e. miracles) but at rather significant personal cost. If they already know the ritual they can even do it quickly and waive larger component costs. Wizards, on the other hand, have a limited ability to perform the bulk of a ritual they know beforehand, and release it in an instant if desired. Druids use rituals faster on cheaper depending on the environment, etc. These are less common modes of accessing magic, however, and normal combat or utility spells are empowered rituals. I just didn't bother writing the "ritual version" for many since using them in that manner would be very rare.

Finally, I think 3.5 would have benefited (both in theme and balance) if clerics and druid could not prepare from such a large selection of spells every day, but had treated them more like 4e rituals. For example, a ritual similar to Find the Path would still be a potent ability if it required an hour to cast and had a component cost, but if a specialized cleric was the only one capable of casting it over a few rounds, he could use it to achieve qualitatively different outcomes. Of the homebrew designs I made for 3.5, my favorite is a divine class that chooses 3 domains, where the spells in those domains make up the entirety of its spell list. (Although primarily a warrior, it is a spontaneous caster with a slow slots/day progression.) Those restrictions make each one quite unique from deity to deity, and treating some 3.5 spells more like 4e rituals would have achieved that even more. I hope it will not surprise anyone that I'd like 5e to go in this direction, at least with divine casters. :)
 

@ Nemesis Destiny - Well there should be SOME kind of financial cost, as you're effectively getting a one-use magic item, but limiting use should be through another mechanic, like hit point or healing surge cost. Actual casters could get 'free' castings, as Bards do.
I agree - to a point.

I deal with it in my home campaign in two ways - first, I ditch the item economy. I use inherent bonuses, which means no more silly item treadmill. If I want to have players "grinding for better pants" as a friend of mine put it, I would play Diablo (which I also do - but that's another case entirely ;) ).

Second, I still have players buy access to rituals, and I still have them maintain a "ritual kit" which costs as much as their highest-priced ritual does to cast. I should note that because I use inherent bonuses, I also give out a lot less cash.

Then, I devised a system whereby ritual use costs healing surges. Two surges for at-level rituals, and after so many levels, the cost goes down, until eventually they cost no surges at all. I set the intervals at -3 levels and-6 levels for heroic tier, -4 and -8 for paragon, and -5 and -10 for epic. Any ritual with a focus still requires one, and any additional healing surge cost listed in the ritual itself is on top of the normal cost. I have only playtested this in the heroic tier.

So far, my group seems to like it. Rituals get used, but not frivolously. I should also point out that they don't always know when their next extended rest is coming, as I don't automatically allow one at every daily rest, so they are extremely judicious with surge spending.

I also have recharging dailies cost surges.

Healing surge cost sounds like a viable idea, until it starts to force the 15 minute adventuring day. IME, Healing Surges above any other resource are the ones that "force" the group to find a place to hole up and rest.
Yeah, this is true, which is why I do not allow the players to decide when they get an extended rest. They can still take as many short ones as they like though.

The cost of rituals is too "high" because the resource expected to be used for them (gold) is the same as is expected to be used to keep up with magic items.
This was a large part of the reason I wanted to decouple the two elements - they should not be competing for resources at all because rituals will lose every time.

Making "Ritual Components" an addition to the treasure parcel mechanic seems to solve the majority of problems. A certain amount of "treasure" at every level is tied to rituals. In addition, giving out rituals books and scrolls as part of treasure also starts to incentivize players to actually use them.
As Ryujin has noted, this only works in some groups - others see this stuff as more progress toward their Next Big Plus. I believe that the item treadmill is the root of this problem.

In my campaign I'm exploring the idea of giving rituals out as part of leveling to the Wizard and the Cleric (one ritual every 2 levels). I'm exploring the idea of doing the same for the Fighter, Warlord and Ranger with Martial Practices, but I'm not entirely convinced.
I too have toyed with the idea of giving out Practised Study for free to all, martial classes, or at least the fighter. Nobody in my current group is playing one though, so I couldn't test that idea. I think it has merit though.
 
Last edited:

I like the ritual system, but found that the players with the most access to it (arcane casters and the like) were the least likely to remember to use them and track what they actually know. Conversely, the martial characters are the most likely to want to use rituals, but have little stats for it, and not a feat to spare, sadly.

So I came up with a homebrew system that replaces the ritual system entirely. Basically, everyone has things their character is good at. Those are talents. Those talents are like super-skills. Things like "Command Troops", "Use Portal", "Linguist", etc. These replace rituals, and every character gets 1 or 2. They can use them however they see fit, provided they explain it to me sufficiently and role play it out a bit.

That's the gist of it, but I posted a more in-depth explanation in the homebrew forum. The original post is here.
 

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top