Rituals Designs

[Chris Knapp]

The only problem I have with using healing surges as the "fuel" for rituals is the Class & Constitution based number of surges favors classes that we don't traditionally think of using them. We need some form of expendable resource directly tied to the character, that is ideally associated with rituals in some way.

What we just started doing in my campaign is tying ritual usage to the associated skill as a form of mana pool. You master and can use rituals as normal in 4E. If your arcana skill is 16, you have 16 arcana points. To actually cast the ritual, you compare the spell's level to your skill points in that spells key skill. There is no GP cost, however, if there is a surge cost, that remains. A 4th level arcana ritual costs 4 arcana points. After you cast the ritual, roll a d4 and subtract that many additional arcana points (this reduces spamming of low-level rituals.) When you run out of arcana points, you're done until your next extended rest. And while you may be out of Arcana points, you may still have Nature or Religion points and can cast rituals associated with either of those skills.

Definitely not perfect, but it has really encouraged our "caster-types" to consider rituals more, especially since our 2 martial characters are big fans of Martial Practices.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

The only problem I have with using healing surges as the "fuel" for rituals is the Class & Constitution based number of surges favors classes that we don't traditionally think of using them.

Yeah, this is the one issue that my system doesn't yet get around.

So far, classes that typically have a high Con and start with a lot of healing surges typically don't have high skills in the associated stats, but many rituals don't call for rolls, either.

I'm considering adding that you must be trained in a given ritual's associated skill, even if no roll is called for. Still doesn't entirely fix the problem, but most classes that would outshine casters at ritual use also aren't keen to blow lots of feats gaining access to skills.

The other option is to give ritual caster types one or more "Freebies" every day. Some already get this, but it's worth considering extending it to those who don't.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

It just occurred to me that this would be a decent way to improve the "Expert Ritualist" Feat (which, in its current incarnation nobody in their right mind would ever take).

The feat, in addition to its current terrible benefit, could also allow you to use one ritual per day without expending components, and for those of us using healing surges as fuel, those too.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

While I understand your arguments for giving everyone ritual caster, that doesn't fit my "worldview" of D&D - IMHO, not everyone should be able to use magic, and the AEUD structure pre-essentials for martial classes was already a step too far. Additionally, I see the same risk as with the martial practices - by having "rituals" that allow you to do things like document forgery, it essentially removes doing those things purely through skills.

Now, I don't have a problem with classes spending a feat to be able to do rituals - so, if you want a barbarian to be able to use the "rites" talked about up thread, they can. That said, I think the current system where non-arcane/divine classes have to spend 2 feats (one for training in religion/arcana, the second for ritual casting) is too steep - as such I would either change the requirement of the religion/arcana skill as a pre-requisite (either remove it entirely, or broaden it to include heal and nature) or have taking the feat also give you a skill (similar to the entry level mutli-classing feats).

I've done the ritual components thing. The party sold them, at 25% of value. I've given ritual scrolls out. They're essentially the only rituals, that the Cleric possesses. Giving them out for levelling might not be a bad idea, overall, but it doesn't foster their use. If it doesn't kill or make things that kill, then I'm seeing little interest from my players.

To me this sounds like the main issue your PCs have with rituals isn't aoubt gold...

Additionally, I disagree with Ryugjin's approach to "unwanted" rests - to me, if the PCs are resting because one (or more) PCs are out of healing surges, that's a legitimate reason to rest and they should only be punished for doing so for legitimate story reasons (for example, if they only have X time to do Y, resting may cause them to be too late). To respond to PCs draining their surges by ritual casting by killing them when they try to rest doesn't, to me, seem like a sound way of encouraging ritual use. Indeed, one reason I'm not a big fan of the "spend a surge" mechanism for rituals - you are making rituals most difficult/expensive to cast for the very classes (controllers, who tend to have few surges) one would expect to make the most use of them.

 

[Ryujin]

I don't know about anyone else, but I never said anything about 'giving' everyone Ritual Caster. In fact I said there's nothing wrong with them using a feat to BUY Ritual Caster.

Letting them rest because they're out of healing surges is one thing, but letting them rest because they've over used rituals to the point of abuse, or have capped off every daily they have to make a fight easier, isn't a reason to let them get away with a rest. There have to be some consequences, to trying to break the system.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Goal 2 - Give more characters magic. Spellcasters solve problems with spells. Fighters solve problems with force of arms. Thieves solve problems with stealth and cunning. If I want a magical solution to a problem, I want a spell caster. Casting spells should be the domain of those characters. Just like Swords and martial prowess should be the domain of the fighter or Martial character. Don't pass out what makes the spell caster special to every other class.

Were you against fighter/magic user multiclasses in previous games, or elves in Basic for the same reason? Because giving how rituals actually work in 4E, there is no way that I can see to be consistent otherwise.

It seems rather counter-intuitive to me that one of the big gripes of the anti-4E crowd was that, "I can't do my character!"-because the "fighter" label coudn't be attached to "my martial archer guy" or "mutliclassing doesn't let me really trade fighter powers for wizard powers"--and then turn around and claim that fighters are fighters, wizards are wizards, and never the twain shall meet. One would think that those ritual design goals would be one of the few things they would support.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Were you against fighter/magic user multiclasses in previous games, or elves in Basic for the same reason? Because giving how rituals actually work in 4E, there is no way that I can see to be consistent otherwise.

It seems rather counter-intuitive to me that one of the big gripes of the anti-4E crowd was that, "I can't do my character!"-because the "fighter" label coudn't be attached to "my martial archer guy" or "mutliclassing doesn't let me really trade fighter powers for wizard powers"--and then turn around and claim that fighters are fighters, wizards are wizards, and never the twain shall meet. One would think that those ritual design goals would be one of the few things they would support.

I'm not against the Fighter/Magic User. I didn't like the cost of getting rituals in 4th (a single feat). A multiclass/hybrid should be required to get access to them.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm not against the Fighter/Magic User. I didn't like the cost of getting rituals in 4th (a single feat). A multiclass/hybrid should be required to get access to them.

It takes at least two feats for non-spellcasters (they don't have the right skills), and it's more optimal to take the multi-class feat to get that skill anyway.

A fighter just taking Ritual Caster doesn't happen in game. (It's not even legal.) Taking Ritual Caster and Skill Training (Arcana) rarely happens in-game; it's flat-out worse than multi-classing with cleric.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

It takes at least two feats for non-spellcasters (they don't have the right skills), and it's more optimal to take the multi-class feat to get that skill anyway.

A fighter just taking Ritual Caster doesn't happen in game. (It's not even legal.) Taking Ritual Caster and Skill Training (Arcana) rarely happens in-game; it's flat-out worse than multi-classing with cleric.

With backgrounds, it's easy to pick up Arcana or Religion as a skill.

The reason it's rare that characters take up Ritual Caster: Rituals suck

Rituals are a big sticking point for me in 4th Edition. I think the concept (for the most part) is great. I think the execution of them is severly lacking. They shouldn't have a GP cost associated with them (some other cost should drive them) and they shouldn't take 10 minutes+ to cast.

If I was redesigning them, I'd do the following

• The cost to cast a ritual would be one or more Healing Surges. At each tier or play, you'd receive one Pseudo-Healing Surge that can only be used for a Ritual. Healing Surges are a lmited, but constantly renewing resource, perfect for controlling the number of rituals cast per day.
• The casting times would be Standard Action (for use in combat), Short Rest (the caster would still get the benefit of the Short Rest), Extended Rest (again, getting the benefit of the Extended Rest), or Special (for unique rituals).
• Effect durations would be in terms of Instant, Short Rest, Extended Rest (until your next Short/Extended Rest, the effect continues), or Permenant. If you cast Phantom Steed, it might last until your next Extended Rest (allowing the ponies to stick around for the full adventuring day).
• I'd tie each Ritual to a Power Source. Divine Rituals could only be used by those with the Divine Power Source (Hybrid or Multiclass). Arcane Rituals, Martial Rituals, Primal Ritual, Psionic Rituals, etc would all require that you have that power source to use them. Having the key skill would not be enough. Overlap could occur (Arcane and Divine might both have a Dispell Magic ritual)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Goal 2 - Give more characters magic. Spellcasters solve problems with spells. Fighters solve problems with force of arms. Thieves solve problems with stealth and cunning. If I want a magical solution to a problem, I want a spell caster.

And this to me is a bad thing. Bad for the fighter - it reminds me of "Your Gun is your skill list" in the Munchkin's Guide to Powergaming. (Haggling? Draw a gun). Also bad for the spellcaster (I want to use cunning and guile with my spells). But primarily cunning and guile are applicable in almost any situation, so are spells. Force of arms in the middle of diplomatic negotiations? Not so much. If you want such differentiation, take away the guileful spells and the short-casting time spells from the casters.

Goal 3 - Avoid Complex Embedded Rules. This is a case of a company not trusting it's customers to handle complex rules. I can't say anything else nice about this design goal.

I can handle complex embedded rules. I just don't want to unless necessary. It's annoying and slows everything down.