RITUALS will be officially modified :)

[WalterKovacs]

A lot of ritual complaints comes down to style of play. If the PCs are proactive (trying to solve a mystery, find an object, track down a badguy, planning a heist, etc) than rituals can come in very handy. If they have some information about their target, they can use that, and a ritual, to gain further tactical advantage. However, in some parties, they are reactionary. They don't know ahead of time what kinds of rituals they'll need so they either over prepare (getting tons of rituals into their ritual book and lug around a bunch of material components, most of which they never end up using, which in turn makes them dislike ritual casting) or they under prepare (not knowing what to get, they bring only the essentials, if that, or just spend the money on magical items they know they will use). Certain rituals are great for ambushing enemies or setting up a great place for a fight ... however in many groups it's extremely rare that the PCs are the ones that will have the fight come to then ... more often, they are going to the fight, and the enemies are already there. Just like some of the lair based magic items ... they would be cool to use, but they require a campaign where the PCs are waiting for the fight to come to them. It can happen, but that seems to be a rarity amongst adventure/campaign types.

Heck, some parties rarely encounter locked doors ... the "solved in a single check" types of locks and tracks being replaced by mini-skill challenges or puzzles, etc. I've seen thievery more often used in trying to disable traps than pick locks, especially as most traps require multiple tries vs. a single check for a lock.

The old "wizard's knock makes rogue useless" complaint was, in part, because the rogue was already giving up combat effectiveness in exchange for more skills ... and when those skills are easily replicated by a wizard, who also got combat effectiveness as part of the package, it was pretty annoying. [Of course, that's why, as a rogue, I'd always max out my use magic device skill ... I can buy and use wands too]

With 4e, the rogue doesn't have to overcompensate out of combat to make up for being less than optimal in combat.

 

[Stalker0]

See, for most rituals I always found the 'it takes too much time' thing to be an odd kind of complaint. Most "plot" rituals aren't cast in time critical situations and since the TABLE time is the same no matter what the longer casting times seem to mostly amount to "you can take an extended rest while this plot element plays out".

I'll admit that in many cases the casting time is not a mechanical issue, but a flavor one. But hey in a RPG flavor matters quite a bit.

For some rituals like divination, a 10 minute casting time invokes a long draw out scene with a ritual circle, spells cast, maybe some dancing or something, etc. That works with the flavor.

For other rituals, like tenser's disk or knock for example, seem somewhat silly in the context of a 10 minutes. For these I prefer 1 minute durations, to me that invokes a wizard who closes his eyes and begins to channel some strong energies to get the job done...but who doesn't need to pull out the chalk and start getting out the fine china to make it work.


So yes, it really is just a matter of flavor...but, so what...that's important.


I will say that rituals as a whole are tricky business. On the one hand they need to be useful, but on the other hand it does seem like quite a bit of power to acquire for a single feat

 

[MrMyth]

I want someone to point out what "cheap enough" would BE if it isn't what rituals cost right now in general. Lets look at a level 6 party. They will have by the parcel system accumulated 10,395 gp in MONEY treasure (and almost 50k in magic items) by the end of this level. So, hmmm, you mean out of that 10 THOUSAND gold they can't afford to cast a couple rituals per level?

One thing to keep in mind, though - treasure can be a group thing, but also an individual thing. I've liked the idea of playing a ritual caster who has a number of tricks up his sleave - not necessarily the classic wizard who solves every problem effortlessly, but simply someone who has some useful options for various circumstances.

But that also means I'm probably the one shouldering the cost. Sure, maybe I can convince the group to pool party treasure to fuel the occasional ritual that is obviously good for everyone - but the rest will come out of my own pocket. And so I've got 2,000 gp I've earned over those levels. Suddenly, 150 gp is much more significant. And, of course, I might need to pay to learn the rituals as well. Buying 2-3 rituals might cost me half my gold, only leaving enough for a handful of castings.

Now, the costs are not insurmountable, certainly. But I don't think they are worth dismissing, either. It can definitely be hard to find a good balance, especially since the prices do become trivial for higher level characters. I am eager to see if they've finally come up with a good solution!

 

[Plane Sailing]

Out of curiosity, what exactly is the problem with Rituals as they are now for typical players?

Personally I found them slow and boring.

I resolved this by making it possible to use skill challenges to cast many rituals in the middle of melee (rules on my wiki if you are interested). This added many more tactical options and added excitement to the game. YMMV of course

http://planesailing.pbworks.com/w/page/17118068/Using-Rituals-in-melee

 

[El Mahdi]

...I resolved this by making it possible to use skill challenges to cast many rituals in the middle of melee (rules on my wiki if you are interested)...

Do you have a linky to your wiki? (I didn't see one on your profile page...)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One thing to keep in mind, though - treasure can be a group thing, but also an individual thing. I've liked the idea of playing a ritual caster who has a number of tricks up his sleave - not necessarily the classic wizard who solves every problem effortlessly, but simply someone who has some useful options for various circumstances.

But that also means I'm probably the one shouldering the cost. Sure, maybe I can convince the group to pool party treasure to fuel the occasional ritual that is obviously good for everyone - but the rest will come out of my own pocket. And so I've got 2,000 gp I've earned over those levels. Suddenly, 150 gp is much more significant. And, of course, I might need to pay to learn the rituals as well. Buying 2-3 rituals might cost me half my gold, only leaving enough for a handful of castings.

Now, the costs are not insurmountable, certainly. But I don't think they are worth dismissing, either. It can definitely be hard to find a good balance, especially since the prices do become trivial for higher level characters. I am eager to see if they've finally come up with a good solution!

I think the point is good. What it illustrates IMHO is that GP cost is a highly variable measure. A ritual that at 150 gp a casting is expensive for a 6th level PC is pocket change for a 10th level PC and basically free for a 15th level one, yet the Cure Disease ritual has just as much utility at all levels. And as you point out circumstances are a factor as well. 4e establishes a fairly good baseline for wealth at any given level but no two games will be the same etc.

I just don't really know what a 'better' cost would be. Healing Surges sound OK, but when you're in town or depending on the situation that could be your last surge or one you would never have spent anyway and thus a freebie. Obviously an HS cost does mostly cut out the likelihood of mass spamming a ritual, but I don't think it is a suitable general basis as the way to pay for ritual casting. I'm not really sure there IS a single method that is without some flaws. One possibility would be to scale the casting cost to the character's level, but that often seems kind of hokey to me. It could be OK for rituals that vary in effectiveness like Magic Circle though.

[MENTION=63763]WalterKovacs[/MENTION] you have a good point. The situation in 4e isn't as extreme as it was in say 1e with spells where basically ALL the thief was good for was using his skills.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Personally I found them slow and boring.

I resolved this by making it possible to use skill challenges to cast many rituals in the middle of melee (rules on my wiki if you are interested). This added many more tactical options and added excitement to the game. YMMV of course

Yeah, certain rituals make sense in a "let's try to pull this off mid-combat". In one encounter, there was ritual that would destroy the object that was resurrecting the bad guy, and would do so in a way that kept the artifact the bad guy possesed intact (you could also end the ressurections by tossing the artifact into the object, but doing so destroys the artifact). Of course, because this was 10 minutes, that would mean 100 rounds of combat where each round the bad guy came back ...

Eventually it came down to the players being able to take the bad guy out each round he came back, via readying actions, so since the loop woud likely be repeated indefinitely, and time running out at the location, I handwaved that they were able to get it done in time.

One thing i was planning to do the next time I played a ritual caster (especially since I'd likely be starting a paragon tier) was to take the skill powers which reduce time and cost of casting (I especially like the idea of just bluffng my way through a ritual) as those would probably encourage me to use more rituals as well. The old "you don't like spending any time or money, but if it's at a discount, then sure" syndrome.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Do you have a linky to your wiki? (I didn't see one on your profile page...)

I was on my phone and couldn't easily find it at the time - I've added the link in now though.

Cheers!