Rockin' it old school - give DIY a try!

[AGFlynn]

Another day, another edition.
Having started with this game in 1975, not long after a group of friends discovered Chainmail in the back of a comic book or something, I'm a true old fogey. I've even gotten over the shock of 2e.
I think much of the discussion around 4e has been very interesting, and even being a grumpy ol' b*****d, I'm willing to give it a look.
But here's what I want: a good, solid core rules set and nothing more. Back in the day, when a Coke was 5 cents and a bag of chips a quarter, we used to take the old 1e rules and then make our own content. Lots of content. And it was fun and creative to boot.
Why don't we all do more of that? Why do so many rely on WotC or third-party-created content? It seems a shame that the game has drifted towards encouraging the purchase of pre-designed add-on material and constant rules updates.
Maybe our lives are busier, maybe there's a lot of great stuff out there. Granted, I have a crapload of WotC and other third-party materials (egad, I've even written for and been paid for game design for the latter), but I still enjoy the creative aspects of the game. Designing wicked dungeons, cooking up great characters with cool backstories.
I think there's now too much focus on process and not enough on playing.
I think WotC and others are doing a great job creating top-notch product, but it has steered me away from creating my own content because, hell, it's just easier.
So.
My suggestion to those who are miffed that WotC is engineering a cash grab by pumping out product after product and new editions at the drop of a hat is: vote with your feet and do it yourself. If you like 4e, buy the core books and build the rest yourself. Really, it's fun. 4e will probably be a great product because there are smart people behind it, with experience.
In my humble opinion, the game has gotten away from the gamers. Take it back! No offence to WotC, but we don't need their product to have a good time. Don't waste time whining about no d6 fireballs -- you're not a slave, pick and choose what you like and leave the rest.
This game is what we make it. No?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Why don't we all do more of that?

We do.

Why do so many rely on WotC or third-party-created content?

Time constraints, primarily. But I certainly won't presume to speak for all.

Maybe our lives are busier, maybe there's a lot of great stuff out there.

Bingo.

This game is what we make it. No?

Yes. But I suspect you are preaching to the converted, here, as elsewhere online and "IRL".

No offence, just setting a couple of things straight there.

 

[GreatLemur]

Yeah, I would hope that's what most folks here are already doing. I mostly like the looks of 4E, but I don't expect to ever play a game without (at least) a few housrules. And I definitely don't expect to be using somebody else's campaign setting or adventures.

 

[takasi]

Why reinvent the wheel?

Isn't it a valid point to ask for a DM who is just the referee and not the sole world builder, adventure builder or even as you seem to want ruleset builder?

If you go to a convention to meet new people and play, shouldn't D&D offer Organized Play that is...well...Organized? How can they do that without product, and if there is product then critique is naturally expected.

 

[AGFlynn]

We do.


Time constraints, primarily. But I certainly won't presume to speak for all.


Bingo.


Yes. But I suspect you are preaching to the converted, here, as elsewhere online and "IRL".

No offence, just setting a couple of things straight there.

I'm glad to hear others are still DIYing it. But I don't think there would be so much content being published by WotC and OGL publishers if there wasn't a market for it. That leads me to suspect that, especially new gamers, there are more and more relying on predeveloped material.
Admittedly, in the early stages, we didn't have anything much more than core rules, so we were forced to make a lot up.
But the sheer volume of content out there and the threads and threads on what will and won't be published along side the core rules in 4e leads me to believe that there's a number of non-converted out there.
And when it comes to making converts, I've always been one to take the missionary position...
Offence? Gosh no. These are discussion boards right?

 

[AGFlynn]

Why reinvent the wheel?

Isn't it a valid point to ask for a DM who is just the referee and not the sole world builder, adventure builder or even as you seem to want ruleset builder?

If you go to a convention to meet new people and play, shouldn't D&D offer Organized Play that is...well...Organized? How can they do that without product, and if there is product then critique is naturally expected.

No, I didn't suggest that the DM do everything. Just that it's fun to take a core ruleset and build on it, make your own worlds and play in them.
I think organized play is fantastic, I think there's a need for completely developed rulesets and add-ons and what have you. I just like to encourage gamers to create because in my experience, that is where teh real fun is at.
I'm certainly not advocating that WotC publish the core books then give up. Like 'em or not, they've revitalized the game, and from what I've seen, 4e will continue that trend.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I'm glad to hear others are still DIYing it. But I don't think there would be so much content being published by WotC and OGL publishers if there wasn't a market for it. That leads me to suspect that, especially new gamers, there are more and more relying on predeveloped material.
Admittedly, in the early stages, we didn't have anything much more than core rules, so we were forced to make a lot up.
But the sheer volume of content out there and the threads and threads on what will and won't be published along side the core rules in 4e leads me to believe that there's a number of non-converted out there.
And when it comes to making converts, I've always been one to take the missionary position...
Offence? Gosh no. These are discussion boards right?

lol. You'd be surprised then. Maybe.

But regarding d20 and d20-ish OGL publishers, I'm pretty sure a lot of them never made the sales numbers they needed. Some of the few remaining are still struggling, I believe. Yeah, even pretty good ones, like The Inner Circle.

So I wouldn't be sure if "d20" as a whole (outside of WotC, and even including their long-dead d20 Modern line) has been a huge success, economically. Not so long ago, it was all doom, gloom and beheadings. Maybe it's picked up since, but I'm not sure. . .


And when it comes to "the converted", yeah maybe I was trying to speak for everyone, despite my protestations, and indeed wishes. I just happen to be one of those crazy house-ruling freaks. I got faith. Yeah.

 

[TerraDave]

Yes, we still do it (see sig). Yes, it is limited by time.

And yes, I will probably get the first 3 rule books and maybe not much more.

Unless I subscribe to the DI, but that would really be more for tools and diversion then crunch.

Still, its not bad advice.

 

[AGFlynn]

lol. You'd be surprised then. Maybe.

But regarding d20 and d20-ish OGL publishers, I'm pretty sure a lot of them never made the sales numbers they needed. Some of the few remaining are still struggling, I believe. Yeah, even pretty good ones, like The Inner Circle.

So I wouldn't be sure if "d20" as a whole (outside of WotC, and even including their long-dead d20 Modern line) has been a huge success, economically. Not so long ago, it was all doom, gloom and beheadings. Maybe it's picked up since, but I'm not sure. . .


And when it comes to "the converted", yeah maybe I was trying to speak for everyone, despite my protestations, and indeed wishes. I just happen to be one of those crazy house-ruling freaks. I got faith. Yeah.

Yeah, true. I was thinking mostly of WotC and Privateer Press, with whom I've worked in the past. Both sucess stories, along with probably White Wolf, Green Ronin and others. Huge success? Maybe not, but at least they still exeist, right? In a niche market like this, that's a true feat. That they (again WotC) can produce and sell more and more glossy sourcebooks in a really tough market is quite astounding.

 

[AGFlynn]

Lemme just add to this to clarify.
I have a four-year-old already interested in what daddy and those weird guys are doing around the table every Monday night.
If and when he starts playing, I'd like to see him go out and read books and research and watch movies for ideas than grab a completely predesigned game system with a completely predesigned campagin and -- in some cases this has already been done and will be with the first 4e adventure -- completely predesigned characters! Even a complete noob should get the pleasure of creating their first character! I mean, gods above, that's not D&D, it's a CCG or board game or CRPG or something.
When I see things that tend to indicate a drift towards the "everything will be laid out for you when you buy into this new game system, you don't even have to think, we do it all for you!" it makes me nervous. I'm not saying that's what 4e will be.
It's like the difference between grabbing a burger at Rotten Ronnies and making a nice home-cooked meal. It'll fill ya up, but it won't satisfy you.