Rodney Thompson: Non-Combat Encounters

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So, wait. You did show the mechanics that you were saying you couldn't show people? And by that, I mean this-


That is dangling. Its the same thing that you folks have been saying since October/November- The noncombat stuff is REALLY SO AMAZINGLY AWESOME... but we aren't going to show it.

However, I was lamenting that we'd not said much about the noncombat encounter system, not trying to dangle the information in front of you.

He was lamenting. Maybe he "accidently" also dangled a cool subystem in front of you, but was not his intention. l

And the specific example... feh. So the player magically creates sewers. So what? He *still* has to elude the guards! Or do the sewers come with an SEP field and anyone near them is ignored by the guards? At some point he still has to get escape their attention/hide/distract them in some way, so he can get into the sewers without the guards noticing.

It doesn't sound like theres much roleplaying involved- the streetwise character bringing gangs into the situation has some potential, but the sewer example sounds like the player talked the GM into allowing him to make a random roll to beat the challenge.

This is only part of the escape. The next step is "you are in the sewers. How do you avoid the Guards finding you there"? The implicit idea is each succesful check means less and less guards can track you, until you finally reached a point where you have evaded the guards _and_ left the city. If this would have been the "final" check in a sequence of rolls, the sewer might have a fast exit from the city, and the guards didn't follow you. If it was just one of many to come, the guards might eventually begin searching the sewer, too, and you need to hide from them.

The roleplaying part is where the player decides what his character would try. Off course the character would also try to use his strengths. If the player isn't very creative "I will try to remember which route the citizens used in the past to get out of the city". The DM might decide that this is okay, or that this is very hard (since it's too specific to know from history), or just say it doesn't work.
Interesting question is how you use "this doesn't work". Simplest approach might be "tell the DM something until he allows you to roll", but an alternative might be to still let the player roll - but only to see if he wasted time (successes don't count, but failures do).

 

[small pumpkin man]

My take on this is simple:

Any feature of the terrain which I have explicitly detailed, either by describing it or drawing it on the map, is there, no questions asked. Any feature of the terrain which corresponds to / goes against my mental image but I haven't described by accident (if you've been thrown into a barred cell with plate metal walls, and ask if it has a ventilation duct, I'll probably answer no if I meant for it not to have one) is there or not as appropriate. Oops.

For the rest of the stuff, if it's not patent nonsense, you can describe it being there or ask if it's there and effectively "create" it on the fly.

(I'd be a little leery of letting someone just escape pursuing guards through a sewer underneath a city, though. That seems like the sort of thing I'd definitely allow if a sewer was appropriate there, but it also seems like the sort of thing that would get you out of the frying pan and into the fire. Sewers in D&D not being monster-infested deathtraps is pretty rare.)

Yes, well, remember that when using this system you are likely using the multiple success rules, as they're supposed to go together. The point is compared to the way many 3.x games were played, that you encourage player imagination (by allowing their wacky plans to work) while at the same time extending the scene out so that it doesn't just go "I find the sewer, city escaped".

 

[hong]

And why do the PCs just sit around doing nothing when there is no ventilation shaft? This sounds more like a player problem to me where they expect the DM to hand them everything on a silver platter instead of thinking of something for themselves which takes the actual situation into account.

Yes, Derren.

And why is having unimagitive players who can't think of something else besides crawling through an ventilation shaft railroading? Imo the players should have total freedom of what to do and what not, but they have to live with the consequences of their actions (or in this case inaction)

So, just to make sure I understand you correctly... the players have total freedom to do anything they want, within the confines of a sealed room?

 

[Wolfspider]

This is must one of those sim/narr style dichotomies that 4e has revealed to me.

Because at my table, that sewer will never exist until the player invents it.

This must be one of the reasons why Cinematic Unisystem appeals to both of us so much.

Player: "Ahhh! I've got to get away from these zombies! Is there a sewer nearby?"

Me: "Spend a drama point and there is!"

Player: "Ok, spent. I crawl down the manhole and pull the cover behind me. Whew! That was close. Hmmm. It sure is dark in here...."

Me: "As you fumble in your pocket for a lighter to illuminate your new situation, you hear something shamblling down in the sewer with you, but you're not sure what it is."

Player: "Gulp! Do rats shamble?"

 

[Ian O'Rourke]

Hah, this old chestnut. It largely comes down to playstyle, as everyone knows, so trying to debate it backwards and forwards isn't going to work.

I like declaritive use of skills. I like them because I don't want to play games that involve me getting out of the DM's puzzle, whatever that may be. I don't want to run games in which the players have to figure out how to get out of my 'puzzle'. I mean 'puzzle' in the broadest sense, insert situation if you like.

For me, that road leads to pixel bitching, in which the players try and click the right pixel.

It's not interesting. The only decisions that are interesting are ones that involve dramatic choices or make things more exciting (ideally both). Being stuck in any situation, and I notice the 'locked room debate has started', isn't interesting. Figuring your way out isn't interesting. It only becomes interesting if it leads to a more exciting situation or involves dramatic character choice.

The way I see it, if the player can generate this through declaritive use of skills it makes my job (a) easier and (b) may well generate something that player is more specifically interested in.

If a player has a skill that can be used to declare there is a garbage grill in the wall while being stuck in a dead end corridor in the Death Star while be shot at by Stormtroopers I'm going to say yes. I don't want them to die. I don't want them to keep pixel bitching until they find a solution only I'm happy with. So, I'm fine with a skill declaring the garbage grill as it may just trigger my thoughts to have it lead to a garbage campactor.....

I can't think of everything afterall, and there is six people at the table not just me. Plus, they have their characters in mind and how they want to play them.

 

[Derren]

So, just to make sure I understand you correctly... the players have total freedom to do anything they want, within the confines of a sealed room?

Yes, and that includes finding a way to escape this confined room. But they have to work with how the room looks and what tools are available and should not expect that magically a ventilation shaft appears just because they want it to.
Also the PCs don't automatically escape just because they should according to the story. I, as a DM don't write a book. I set the stage for the PCs, populate it with adventure possibilities and then let the PCs do whatever they want. If they want to follow one of my adventure hooks, fine. If not, also fine. if they have fun with it they can set up a baking shop in town. Will it make a good story? Probably not but if the PCs want to do that....

 

[Wormwood]

This must be one of the reasons why Cinematic Unisystem appeals to both of us so much.

Spot on (as was your example).

The fact that D&D is finally meeting me halfway is a clue to my current enthusiasm.

 

[Li Shenron]

It's a good article, but rmy reaction was this was nothing new. I and the GMs that I have played with have been doing things like this with skills for a long time. There was even a section in the DMs guide talking about alternative skill uses and, of course, expanded skill uses in various products. It might also be why I have seen the issue of players over focusing on a few select skills to keep them maxed and ignoring other skills to be a player or group issue and not a game issue. If the DM makes skills relevant, players will learn that focusing on keeping a few skills maxed rather than diversifying is not always a good thing.

Ditto. The system is already there, all we need is better guidelines.

 

[hong]

Yes, and that includes finding a way to escape this confined room.

Which can include a ventilation shaft.

But they have to work with how the room looks and what tools are available and should not expect that magically a ventilation shaft appears just because they want it to.

The tools available are one's brain. The method is to consider the possibilities, one of which is looking for a ventilation shaft. If there is no good reason for there not to be a ventilation shaft, then there is no good reason not to let the player's idea work.

Also the PCs don't automatically escape just because they should according to the story. I, as a DM don't write a book.

Correct. The players do that.

I set the stage for the PCs, populate it with adventure possibilities and then let the PCs do whatever they want.

Such as writing a story.

 

[cwhs01]

It doesn't sound like theres much roleplaying involved- the streetwise character bringing gangs into the situation has some potential, but the sewer example sounds like the player talked the GM into allowing him to make a random roll to beat the challenge.

Its pretty obvious that you dislike what you've seen of the skill system. But what i'm not really sure about is what exactly you dislike about it and why.

maybe you could give an example of a skill system from another rpg that you liked? or an example of a skill based encounter from your own campaign?

It seems like: 1. Cooperative world design; 2. A huge burden off the DM; and 3. Emotional buy-in by players ("I made that!"); to me.

I'm hopeful that the system will encourage all of these. especially points 1, 2 and 3.