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Rogar, dwarven god of the forge - Discussion

GlassEye

Community Supporter
With a cleric of Rogar in the making I thought it would be a good idea to solidify the specifics of the god and granted cleric abilities. Plus, it's just a good idea to have that done anyway. The only bit of information about the deity on the wiki that I know of is below:

The Dwarves worship Rogar, a one-eyed aspect of the Ruler. Legend states that Rogar lost his eye fighting evil gods on the day the Dwarven citadels fell, and if not for his courage and strength of arms evil hordes would have been released upon E’n to wipe the Dwarven race from it. Each Clan depicts Rogar differently, but all of them emphasize his role as a craftsman and his skill with an axe.​
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
My brief thoughts:

Appropriate domains: Earth (Metal subdomain, Caves subdomain); Strength (Ferocity subdomain); Artifice; Good (Archon subdomain); Law (Archon subdomain). I think including Healing domain on this list would be a hard sell for me.

Weapon: Battleaxe or Greataxe. One could make a case for the Warhammer but universal emphasis amongst the clans on the god's use of the axe makes me favor the axe.
 

Aura

Villager
Somehow I missed the axe mention in the lore text. Clearly that should largely determine favored weapon.

As mentioned in Character Submission thread that got this started, I'm not against gods that are associate with fire having a healing domain, although it could be argued this one has enough domains as is.
 

Systole

Community Supporter
I'm fine with this mechanically, but it just seems strange that a forge god wouldn't have hammer as a favored weapon.
 

Deuce Traveler

Adventurer
I don't really imagine him as a forge god, either, since it seems his description is more akin to a god of battle. But I'll just see how the discussion pans out and roll with it.
 

Systole

Community Supporter
Then I would take away the forge bits, and make him a guardian of home and hearth. Drop Artifice and give him Community, and you have my vote.
 

Tailspinner

Explorer
Deity: Rogar
AL : LG
Portfolios: God of crafting, strength, courage
Domains: Artifice, Earth, Good, Law, Strength
Favored Weapon: Battleaxe
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
Two things are emphasized in the Rogar blurb: 1) he's a craftsman & 2) he's skilled with the axe. If neither of those things suit and you want to change them, why not just write up a different dwarven deity?
 

Deuce Traveler

Adventurer
In the blurb he supports artisans, but that doesn't have to mean an armorer. He could have a soft spot for gemcutters, for instance.
 

Systole

Community Supporter
I'm not trying to change both. I'd like to change one or the other. Community/axe or craftsman/hammer. Craftsman/axe just doesn't fit for me. It's like a god of slaughter and cannibalism whose weapon is the quarterstaff. Well, it's not quite so ridiculous as that, but it still doesn't sit well with me.

Overall, I'm confused about the purpose of this thread. Is Rogar locked in somewhere and changing him would involve a retcon (in which case I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is), or is this the first time Rogar has come up and we're going over what the dwarf pantheon should look like? I understand what the wiki says, but until it's in a live game, the wiki is subject to change as far as I'm concerned.
 

Aura

Villager
I did a quick wiki check. Rogar has been the patron deity of at least 4 previous level 2+ characters. Most have the 'I choose Rogar because my character is a dwarf and he is the head dwarf god' feel, and don't really call on any specific details of Rogar in their background (although I'm not quite ambitious enough to check pages and pages of previous adventures to see what they might have said :).). Exception being Saktouk (retired) by jkason, where it is established there is an 'Inner Forge' relating to Rogar. Perhaps asking jkason would help.
 

jkason

Villager
I did a quick wiki check. Rogar has been the patron deity of at least 4 previous level 2+ characters. Most have the 'I choose Rogar because my character is a dwarf and he is the head dwarf god' feel, and don't really call on any specific details of Rogar in their background (although I'm not quite ambitious enough to check pages and pages of previous adventures to see what they might have said :).). Exception being Saktouk (retired) by jkason, where it is established there is an 'Inner Forge' relating to Rogar. Perhaps asking jkason would help.
Aw, my poorly concieved orc-who-acts-like-a-dwarf monk. :)

Honestly, he worshipped Rogar for the same reason you said of most Dwarf characters: that's the primary Dwarf god, and Saktouk was raised by Dwarves.

The Inner Forge monks weren't super religious, though. It was more metaphorical 'burning away impurities from the outside world' stuff, which had more with wanting old power than it did with any specific tenets or tendencies of Rogar. I dug out the old proposal thread if you want to take a look:

linky

As you'll see there, I didn't even actually mention Rogar. And since it's a monestary, actually, they wouldn't really be focused on learning hammers OR axes, so that doesn't hurt anyone's ideas. Actually, since Monks of the Inner Forge were focused on building an isolationist community for more ancestral power, that seems to fit fairly handily into Systole's suggestion to ditch craftsman/Artifice for Community.

Of course, the proposal never actually got enough votes and Saktouk is a distant memory, so it doesn't really hurt anything to retcon it either way as far as I'm concerned. :)
 

Satin Knights

Villager
I am fine with craftsman and axe. A forge hammer is just a tool. It doesn't have to be his primary weapon as well. A warhammer is drastically different in size and shape to a forge hammer.

And as a side note, we have been running with access to all the subdomains choices being available from the main 5 domains for a deity. PFS goes with 5 main domains and 6 subdomains, but we have been running looser than that.
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
Overall, I'm confused about the purpose of this thread. Is Rogar locked in somewhere and changing him would involve a retcon (in which case I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is), or is this the first time Rogar has come up and we're going over what the dwarf pantheon should look like? I understand what the wiki says, but until it's in a live game, the wiki is subject to change as far as I'm concerned.
One purpose is to keep discussion over what/who Rogar is from cluttering up the character submission thread where a cleric of Rogar was submitted. Traditionally, an LPF player interested in playing a cleric of an undefined god had the responsibility of making a submission of that god's requirements, granted abilities, etc. before a character is submitted/approved. I had hoped to encourage some discussion/input from DT about the god and character.

As for the weapon, I see it exactly the same as SK does. It doesn't bother me.

And sure, the wiki is subject to change, should we decide we want to.
 

Maidhc O Casain

Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
My views are lining up with those of SK and GE. It took me a minute to see the differences between tailspinner's two summations - I like the second. Rather than blacksmithing specifically, emphasize crafting. Either way, I'm good with battleaxe.
 

Deuce Traveler

Adventurer
Sorry for my misunderstanding, but I thought the reason we were putting this up as a separate thread was to encourage others who created the blurb about Rogar and dwarven culture to step up into the discussion. This is why I've been passive in the discussion.

My biggest problem has been with two passages that seem at odds with one another. Under the dwarves section, I read this:


Scattered and lost in the strange new world, and now ravaged by time outside of their homes, the dwarves swore revenge against their enemies. Having turned their backs on the Other World, the elves could not help them. The human rulers were glad for their craftsmanship, but often the work was menial and beneath their skill. While most crafted new homes for their clans, others still wandered the world, looking for their lost homes or revenging themselves upon their enemies.

Dwarves are now a humbled people, living throughout the world as craftsmen, merchants and warriors. They often collect in extended family groups, forming a guild in a particular city, especially blacksmithing, mining and stone carving professions. Others remain alone, perhaps having lost their family or simply wandered the world until they found themselves a village to stay in until more of their kind found them. They may have lost much of their ancient lore, but their hard working spirits and love of craftsmanship never left them.


This implies that the dwarves have been crushed and scattered into large family groups. But then there is the Seithr Mountain dwarf section that declares the following:


The Clans work hard to present a unified front to the outside world, and act in close coordination to keep the goblins and other threats at bay. Despite this, dealings among the clans may be tense, and long-running feuds are common. These rarely turn violent, however, as custom dictates that when two Clans fight, both are shunned by others unless there is clear evidence of grievous wrongdoing by one party. Diplomacy is therefore the method of choice for resolving disputes, as evidenced by the common saying, “Leave the axe. Take the ale.”

It would surprise many outsiders to know that the Dwarves, secure in their stone fortresses, consider themselves nomadic. But veins of ore usually play out in less than fifty years, meaning that a dwarf can expect to move at least three or four times in his life. The clans maintain not only their own active holds, but claims on other veins in the hills. Dwarven prospectors continue to comb the hills, and it is a measure of the richness and inaccessibility of the mountains that even today, they still find unclaimed sites. These sites may be traded between the clans, as a clan focused on cutting semi-precious stones would have little use for an iron mine. Such trades may include a stake in future production from the mine, and may be sealed in marriage between two clans. “A bride worth her tin,” is a common expression of respect for a Dwarven matron.


So, in this example there seems to be an offshoot branch from the main dwarves settled in another land. These dwarves are part of a larger clan group and maintain freeholds.

There are other large cultural differences between the sections about dwarves and I still don't feel like I have a firm grasp on either type of dwarves place in the greater campaign world. I thought if I stayed closed lip, I might see if there are some parts of the lore that would be discussed. Unfortunately, the discussion on Rogar seemed to cause more confusion. If he is a war god with a battle-axe, how does that coincide with his craftsman reputation? Maybe he is a marauder and his warfare aspect coincides with his love of crafting plundered pieces of ore and jewelry. But if that's the case, then it would have an effect on dwarven culture that doesn't really seem to jive with the dwarf entries. Sorry, but I'm stuck on this one.
 

jkason

Villager
I'd not gone back and read a lot of the Dwarven culture stuff, but you know, since there's this "once proud, now exiled"-ish vibe going on, would it ruin everything if Rogar USED to be a war god, but after his worshippers failed in war, he--like them--has evolved into a craftsman, using his skill at arms to craft the tools he once used in battle? And like the dwarves themselves, he still holds anger for past glories. He, like a lot of them, wants to get back to the fight, but the time is not yet come.

It might be too complicated, of course, but might likewise explain the axe / forge stuff in a way that likewise reflects the history of the dwarves.

As to the Seithr vs. everyone else stuff, I think you can make that work if you think of the Seithr as a kind of self-contained paradigm. With fewer of the other races there, and built-in resources, the Dwarves in that region did better at maintaining / rebuilding a society, though even they are still a bit at odd ends. Seithr dwarves become a kind of offshoot of general E'n dwarves, whose society is uniquely influenced by their environment.
 

Deuce Traveler

Adventurer
I actually like the idea of the dwarves suffering a sort of diaspora and using their skills in trade to survive. If we are going with that sort of evolution over time, then there could be a way to wave the contradictions. Then Tailspinner's work might look like this:

Deity: Rogar the One-Eyed
AL : LG
Portfolios: Strength, Courage, Mettle
Domains: Artifice, Good, Law, Protection, Strength
Sub-Domains: Loyalty (Law), Defense (Protection), Ferocity (Strength), Resolve (Strength), Toil (Artifice), Good (Friendship)
Favored Weapon: Battleaxe
 

Aura

Villager
One aspect I *like* of Rogar is that the clans don't agree on what, exactly, he is a craftsman of. Although, DT, once you mod up your character sheet to fit whatever version of Rogar gets agreed upon, you'll want to know what craft your dwarf thinks he represents.

I can see discussions between different clans of dwarves using some of the same arguments presented here. :)
 
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