Rogar, dwarven god of the forge - Discussion

Systole

Community Supporter
I'd not gone back and read a lot of the Dwarven culture stuff, but you know, since there's this "once proud, now exiled"-ish vibe going on, would it ruin everything if Rogar USED to be a war god, but after his worshippers failed in war, he--like them--has evolved into a craftsman, using his skill at arms to craft the tools he once used in battle? And like the dwarves themselves, he still holds anger for past glories. He, like a lot of them, wants to get back to the fight, but the time is not yet come.

It might be too complicated, of course, but might likewise explain the axe / forge stuff in a way that likewise reflects the history of the dwarves.

As to the Seithr vs. everyone else stuff, I think you can make that work if you think of the Seithr as a kind of self-contained paradigm. With fewer of the other races there, and built-in resources, the Dwarves in that region did better at maintaining / rebuilding a society, though even they are still a bit at odd ends. Seithr dwarves become a kind of offshoot of general E'n dwarves, whose society is uniquely influenced by their environment.
I quite like this explanation, and withdraw my objection.

I think it's fine if Seithr dwarves are different from deep dwarves and other dwarves. Heck, the elves in Jirago and the elves of whatever that forest kingdom is have a have a much larger cultural divide than that.
 

jkason

Visitor
Aw, shucks. Thanks, guys. :)

Okay, since I think we've settled most objections, I'm going to go ahead and throw in my YES for Rogar as statted in DT's last post (previous page).
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
I'm ok with those basics except subdomains which SK has pointed out we've not listed previously. I would like to see a little more expansion of Rogar's personal story. It doesn't have to be as long or elaborate as the Transcendental Imperium but I think it would be good to fill it out a little more. How does he feel about Caridin, for example, and are their other dwarven gods in the pantheon that he has relationships with? Those sorts of things.

Here's a couple of ideas that have bounced around in my head at various times over the past few years that I haven't fully developed. Now is as good a time as any to toss them out there and see what people think.

1) The dwarves have no natural deities. They were originally immortal, fey-like creatures from the Other World and therefore had no need of deities or an afterlife nor did they fully understand the consequences of giving up their immortality. Caridin came into being in response to the restless spirits of the dwarven dead initially as a psychopomp to escort dwarven souls to appropriate gods of other races. Later Caridin became a god in his own right claiming the dwarven dead as his own. Rogar was a folk-hero of the age before the dwarves lost their strongholds and object of an ancestor cult that quickly developed into a priesthood as the dwarves mimicked the religious institutions of other races.

2) As above, the dwarves have no natural deities. When the dwarves gave up their immortality a certain group of very powerful dwaven-beings remained in the Other World making the supernaturally wondrous things the dwarves were known for. One, Rogar, kept a keen eye on the dwarves interested in how things would turn out for them. When the dwarves' enemies rose up in mass to war against them Rogar roused those near god-like beings into action in defense of their mortal kindred. Inevitably they lost but the intervention of Rogar and his allies caused the development of ancestor cults and worship that propelled those beings into the ranks of the gods.

Those two ideas could work together with Caridin coming with the first dwarven deaths, then Rogar (and allies?) when the dwarves lost their strongholds. I kinda like the idea of the dwarves being one of the oldest races on E'n but having the youngest gods.

3) Dwarves have a small pantheon and have appropriated certain non-dwarven deities. For example, Helerion, perhaps called Helgan by the dwarves, remains a sun god but is primarily a god of the forge to the dwarves (works with the changes to Rogar) and appears like an Azer. Dwarven worship is just divergent enough that he would be (mechanically) considered a different deity and could have different abilities than those specified for Helerion.
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
Fortunately or unfortunately, it was done here with the dwarves first. My ideas above aren't really new, they are based on the background for dwarves that has been in place in LPF since the beginning. Elves are a somewhat different case and gnomes, as far as I know, don't fit that category at all.
 
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Oh okay. I thought gnomes gave up immortality when they left the first world, but I may be confusing my worlds. I'll defer to your expertise on original histories.
 

jkason

Visitor
I find the notion that gods only exist with a finite lifespan feels slightly off to me, since unless the dwarves were omnipotent as well as immortal, there might still be plenty of reasons for worship; just no need for a death god.

On that latter score, though, I have a question about dwarven / elven immortality: was it literally an inability to die no matter what, or was it merely the absence of natural death? i.e., could dwarves / elves be killed?
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
Re: Immortality. I think it was the absence of death by old age but they could still die by misadventure. The elf write-up specifically mentions that they don't age when in their border realms. I think for dwarves it was even simpler: they just didn't die of old age. No assumed invulnerability or omnipotence in either case.

If by finite lifespans you mean birth or death of a totally new divine being then you may be right but the appearance of a new god in E'n doesn't really mean the birth (or spontaneous generation) of a new divine being but the presentation of a new face by one of the seven divine archetypes. And sure, dwarves could have had deities even when they were in the Other World. It just seemed to me that powerful, immortal, single-minded fey beings focused on crafting and magic really wouldn't have a desire or need for divinity. I guess I sort of assumed a similarity to earth folklore where fey are usually antithetical to the divine.
 

jkason

Visitor
It just seemed to me that powerful, immortal, single-minded fey beings focused on crafting and magic really wouldn't have a desire or need for divinity. I guess I sort of assumed a similarity to earth folklore where fey are usually antithetical to the divine.
Okay, this sits better in my head with the fey / folklore analogue in place. I was only registering the immortality stuff, which I think was where it was sticking for me.

In that case, I think I probably like option 1 of the three you put forth, since it lets Rogar be a warrior (getting his axe-y-ness) when he was a folk hero, but move toward the forge as his people do the same.
 

Aura

Visitor
I heard a lot of neat ideas get bantered about in this discussion, and was wondering where we are on this issue? (I ask because DT's new character is effected by the results and it's been a while.)
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
We've stalled. Subtract the subdomain list and the last iteration of the mechanics is acceptable to me. I can't bring myself to approve a deity for character use without more than the bare minimum of setting information to go along with it, though.
 

Aura

Visitor
Ah, I see. As far as mechanics go, it does seem to be pretty close. Which subhuman(s) was troublesome, GE? Perhaps that can get fixed up pretty easily.

As far as the overall story, it's apparently not just about Rogar, but the dwarven gods in general. Build a base, then work up from there, sort of thing. I can see GE's idea 1 or perhaps 1+2 meshing in part or wholly with jkason's work, plus justification for the relative independent development of Sethir dwarves. It seems to me that those could be meshed into the material, if that is the base people want to work from.

This leads to the question: Is this, as a starting point, acceptable material for generation of the proposal? I didn't see any strong objection, but thought I'd ask. If it's acceptable, I'd be happy to bring it together into something so it's easy to consider.
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
It's not that there is anything wrong with the subdomain list. I haven't looked at it in a while but I think it was ok. As SK pointed out, we haven't listed subdomains for any of the other deities (except Transcendental Imperium which also lists acceptable Oracle mysteries) so I think the idea was that it wasn't necessary here either.

As far as the historical/mythological I think a lot of the stuff from this thread is just stating what's already there but in a more obvious way. Another option for the dwarven pantheon is that they've always been there. I didn't list it earlier because that's generally the default option. IMO, if you're willing to put stuff together then feel free to select/take it in whatever direction suits you.
 
The idea on the subdomains was that they don't need to be listed because we have allowed people to chose either of the subdomains listed for a primary domain. So, our characters get a choice of 15 options, whereas PFS characters generally get 11 options to choose from.
 

Tailspinner

Explorer
Deity: Rogar the One-Eyed
AL : LG
Portfolios: God of strength, courage, mettle
Domains: Artifice, Good, Law, Protection, Strength
Favored Weapon: Battleaxe
 

Aura

Visitor
For some reason, I didn't understand the nature of what GE was saying, but having him and SK clarify it I now do. My apologies for somehow missing that. Although when the Lady of Sorrows was written up, subdomains, inquisitions and mysteries were all included information. I'm ok with either approach.

If laying it out into a 'all in one spot' proposal will help forward the process, I can do so, plus add in some details of my own normally associated with a deity's description. It'll take a few days, and they you all can see if it meets muster. Do my best to bring in things people have specifically said they like or are hoping to see.

As for as that goes, I'm also in favor of the cool ideas already put forward and not so much into seeing another retread pantheon. Let the Dwarves have something interesting. :)

Perhaps the Dwarven gods are exemplary members of their race that didn't become mortal upon arrival in our world. Something about them drove them to divine greatness, instead.
 

Deuce Traveler

Adventurer
Aura, how is this, taking several inputs and merging them:

Deity: Rogar the One-Eyed
AL : LG
Portfolios: God of strength, courage, mettle
Domains: Artifice, Good, Law, Protection, Strength
Favored Weapon: Battleaxe

The Dwarves worship Rogar, a one-eyed aspect of the Ruler. Legend states that Rogar lost his eye fighting evil gods on the day the Dwarven citadels fell, and if not for his courage and strength of arms evil hordes would have been released upon E’n to wipe the Dwarven race from it. Rogar's saga about his transition from master craftsman to military leader and finally to his ascension has been retold several times, being the subject of many renowned pieces of Dwarven high literature and a mirror image to the fate of the Dwarven people. The Dwarven race was crippled by the war, causing them to transition from a militant homogenous race to a broken and scattered people using their trade skills to barter in various lands in order to survive. Rogar's saga has enabled his people to embrace the dualistic importance of creation and destruction; the artisan and the soldier.

Each Clan depicts Rogar differently, but all of them emphasize his role as a craftsman and his skill in combat. They are now a people who find artistry and crafting their primary means of survival, but willing to take on the family's ancient axe when threatened. Rogar's dual-sided battleaxe has a special place represents the dualistic nature of Dwarven philosophy, that it can be used as a tool or for battle, and that it is used in the family as a symbol of elder wisdom and an obligation to defend the household.
 

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