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3.5 Rogue Daggers

Ira Probst

So, I have created a pair of daggers for the Rogue in our group. We are playing 3.5. I am wondering what level would be good to give them to him.....

Whisper & Cry
+1 Masterwork Daggers

: Can inject a poison to silence all spell casting by the target for 1d4 rounds
Cry: Causes a bleed effect which causes 2 damage per round for 1d4 rounds

These abilities can not be used at the same time. The same ability can not be used consecutively in the same combat. The user must wait 1 round after the current ability fades before they can use the other ability (If an effected character dies while an effect is active, it would be 1 round after they die).


Maybe around levels 9-11. They're probably worth about the same in gold as +2 weapons. Could be that they're stronger than that, but even then, levels 12 and above tend to be rarely played, so around level 10 would be a fair compromise.

Ira Probst

That late huh? Wasnt sure if they were too powerful for the 5-6 range.

Also, anyone think of a better name than Cry for the second one? Something that goes better with whisper.


If you wanted to, you could increase their power over time to match what you currently have in mind. Maybe the rogue acquires the daggers at around levels 4-6, but they're just +1 weapons with minor additional benefits. Something like, increase the concentration DC by 2 or 5 when you damage a caster while they're casting (when you ready an attack to disrupt), and grant a +2 bonus on critical confirmation rolls when being able to sneak attack. Then, as the rogue gains levels, the daggers transform into their fully powered forms (maybe they feed off the wielder, or they're partially sentient, etc.).

Ira Probst

Now that's a pretty good idea.

Now just to come up with a better name for that second one lol. Cry isnt horrible but there has to be better.



A magical weapon is already an a Masterwork weapon. Thus its just "+1 dagger". (just being a know-it-all)

0. The Bleed effect isnt too impact-full IMO, so I won't take it into consideration.
1. The silence is a 2nd level spell so a minimum of level 3. Its and AOE with a save so take that into consideration.
2. The ambush feat from Complete Scoundrel, Throat Punch requires +3d6 sneak attack (Rogue level 5) and Imp. Unarmed Strike. This needs to be a sneak attack so, also take that into consideration.
3. IMO a +1 weapon should be given to a player around level 3-4.

Short answer: I would say at level 3-5 would be appropriate.
* The silence effect is for niche targets, that are susceptible to poisons and are casters who require verbals spell components (not taking into account guards who need to be silenced so they don't call for help).
* The Bleed effect is also for living beings only, and it does very little damage and scales poorly.

I have an idea, I'll just put it out here.
* Make the dagger(s) a +1, as is.
* Give it to the player at level 3.
* Now here comes the tricky part, get Complete Scoundrel and give the dagger(s) all the Ambush Feats in the book. This will scale with the rogue, since the feats require +xd6 sneak attacks to be trade for effects. Remove the ones that you don't like or don't fit, like Mind Drain (only against creatures with Psionics).
* Name the daggers "Tricks of the Trade".
* This way you don't have to invent rules for the effects, the daggers progress with the character, thematically its perfect for a rogue, and just like your effects, these only work on living beings.


I'd think it would depend on the Save DC for the poison effect. If there is no Save then there is no appropriate level.

The Cry effect is similar to an Infernal Wound, such as those inflicted by a Horned Devil. I can't recall the name of that weapon ability off hand. (It may have been eliminated between 3.0 and 3.5), but there is/was one. Find it and you can get a comparative plus and.or cost value. (Thought it was Wounding, but that does CON damage.)

There's a Rogue ability called Silencing Strike. The Whisper ability sounds similar to that. By higher levels your Rogue may already have it. At lower levels it may equate to granting a lower level character the feat/class ability too early, and thus unbalance things.

But my advice is, work up an actual treasure value, based on the abilities. Once you do that you'll have a guide for when a treasure item of that value is appropriate.


One of the ideas I had was a generic poisoning weapon enhancement. 500 GP per dose of poison usable daily and one dose of the poison for each daily use as the crafting cost. An adjustment of this, allowing you to replace the poison to be getting free doses of, as well as having the Enhancement bonus of the weapon add to the DC of the poison, can allow for a much smoother progression of power to the daggers.

The changes I'd make to that idea of mine, for a weapon you can start the game with and take all the way to 20, would be to have some of the function be part of a mundane item. A 20-50 GP 1d4 Light weapon with a 19-20/x2 crit as the basic statline and having Contact and Injury poisons applied to it get their DC boosted by the weapon's own attack roll bonus. So making it Masterwork adds 1 to the DC, while Enhancement bonuses add to the DC further. And be sure that it's a useful throwing weapon.

Then I'd have the weapon enhancement part be split, with one offering uses per day free poison dose creation of poisons you already have, with the poison being temporary or tied to the weapon to prevent stockpiling, and the other further boosting poison by either increasing it's DC more or by improving the strength of the poison.

Then you make a bunch of level-appropriate poisons for the Rogue to use as weapon upgrades, with similar stuff for other mundane classes. Possibly giving the Rogue a custom poison crafting setup to make their own poison statlines in accordance with WBL availability.