Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[sleypy]

Wait. But all of the Mastermind features that use stats are based off of Charisma and Intelligence, according to the PHB.

Disguise kit: Charisma.
Forgery: Intelligence.
Gaming: presumably Intelligence (Chess) or Charisma (Poker) although I guess you could pick Horseshoes (Dexterity).
Mimic accents: useful mainly for Charisma (Deception).
Master of Tactics: no stat dependency
Insightful Manipulator: no stat dependency (but does give info relative to your own stats; maybe more useful if your stats are low-ish so you get greater discrimination)
Misdirection: no stat dependency
Soul of Deceit: Charisma (Deception)

I'm not certain but I thought Disguise kit was intelligence.

I'm not sure why you quoted me to listed out bonus skills individually. Two features of the mastermind use ability scores, three don't. I would have liked for all five to have had some benefit from ability score, to balance out all the benefits to Dex that come from the base class.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm not certain but I thought Disguise kit was intelligence.

I'm not sure why you quoted me to listed out bonus skills individually. Two features of the mastermind use ability scores, three don't. I would have liked for all five to have had some benefit from ability score, to balance out all the benefits to Dex that come from the base class.

Perhaps it's because I misunderstood you. I was surprised at the discussion implying that Dexterity, not Intelligence or Charisma, was the driver behind Mastermind abilities. Frankly I don't see Masterminds as benefitting much from Dexterity at all, except in combat, which doesn't seem like their primary focus anyway. I imagine a Mastermind as having Expertise in Insight, Deception, Disguise (kit), and maybe Forgery. You could play a perfectly good Mastermind with Dex 12 and Int 16/Cha 16. He'd have a crummy AC and poor-ish DPR but would be otherwise fine.

 

[sleypy]

Perhaps it's because I misunderstood you. I was surprised at the discussion implying that Dexterity, not Intelligence or Charisma, was the driver behind Mastermind abilities. Frankly I don't see Masterminds as benefitting much from Dexterity at all, except in combat, which doesn't seem like their primary focus anyway. I imagine a Mastermind as having Expertise in Insight, Deception, Disguise (kit), and maybe Forgery. You could play a perfectly good Mastermind with Dex 12 and Int 16/Cha 16. He'd have a crummy AC and poor-ish DPR but would be otherwise fine.

Outside of skills (which aren't unique) it doesn't benefit much from int or cha either. I think it is only levels 1, 3 and 17 that have features that benefit from int and cha.

 

[Imaro]

Wait. But all of the Mastermind features that use stats are based off of Charisma and Intelligence, according to the PHB.

Disguise kit: Charisma.
Forgery: Intelligence.
Gaming: presumably Intelligence (Chess) or Charisma (Poker) although I guess you could pick Horseshoes (Dexterity).
Mimic accents: useful mainly for Charisma (Deception).
Master of Tactics: no stat dependency
Insightful Manipulator: no stat dependency (but does give info relative to your own stats; maybe more useful if your stats are low-ish so you get greater discrimination)
Misdirection: no stat dependency
Soul of Deceit: Charisma (Deception)

Yeah I agree with you, that's why I said "for the most part" the abilities were stat independent in my previous posts... but I assumed that for some reason having a few wasn't good enough for those who wanted an alternate ability build and was trying to determine why... though honestly I'm not sure any class is totally dependent on a single attribute...

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah I agree with you, that's why I said "for the most part" the abilities were stat independent in my previous posts... but I assumed that for some reason having a few wasn't good enough for those who wanted an alternate ability build and was trying to determine why... though honestly I'm not sure any class is totally dependent on a single attribute...

I look at it like this. Mastermind, as a subclass, gains some non-combat abilities with some minor synergy with Intelligence and Charisma, and some combat abilities with no stat dependency. Rogue, as a core class, has combat features with a strong synergy with Dexterity. Therefore, the combination of Rogue-Mastermind is still strongly combat focused towards Dexterity, and gains some minor synergy with Intelligence and Charisma.

What I think some players are looking for are subclass features that give enough combat leverage to Intelligence (or Charisma I guess, although I see Mastermind as Int focused) to make it a rational choice to have Intelligence as the highest stat over Dexterity.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

What I think some players are looking for are subclass features that give enough combat leverage to Intelligence (or Charisma I guess, although I see Mastermind as Int focused) to make it a rational choice to have Intelligence as the highest stat over Dexterity.

IMO, this is rather hard to reconcile with 5e's core assumptions and system paradigm. Not even a gish like EK get to use Intelligence for their fighting skill.

Plus, with the substantive reduction in "mandatory stat supremacy" before one can be considered competent/playable, I don't think a little MAD is all that bad. Definitely nowhere near the problem found in the last few editions.

 

[Imaro]

What I think some players are looking for are subclass features that give enough combat leverage to Intelligence (or Charisma I guess, although I see Mastermind as Int focused) to make it a rational choice to have Intelligence as the highest stat over Dexterity.

I asked if the leveraging of mental stats as combat stats was what fans were looking for and got told...

I've not seen anyone in the thread advocating arbitrary substitution of mental abilities for physical ones as an attack stat; I think that is a red herring.

 

[TwoSix]

IMO, this is rather hard to reconcile with 5e's core assumptions and system paradigm. Not even a gish like EK get to use Intelligence for their fighting skill.

I say "bug", you say "feature". If EKs (or ATs, or some other new subclass) could use Intelligence as their attack stat, what would be the harm? They still need Dex for AC, Initiative, Dex skills, etc.

Plus, with the substantive reduction in "mandatory stat supremacy" before one can be considered competent/playable, I don't think a little MAD is all that bad. Definitely nowhere near the problem found in the last few editions.

I don't think MAD is a problem. I just wish Mastermind was actually MAD. Right now, it's still Dex-SAD like every other Rogue.

 

[TwoSix]

I asked if the leveraging of mental stats as combat stats was what fans were looking for and got told...

Even when people say things aren't about combat........they're always really about combat. You gotta read between the lines.

 

[Imaro]

I say "bug", you say "feature". If EKs (or ATs, or some other new subclass) could use Intelligence as their attack stat, what would be the harm? They still need Dex for AC, Initiative, Dex skills, etc.

What are AT's? Eh... I'm not sure I like the idea of casters also drawing on their magical ability score for physical combat. I think their versatility is what they are paying for in having to keep up more than one stat... and usually their magic (at least in so far as the paladin and ranger are concerned more than make up for a slight dip in their main attack stat.

I don't think MAD is a problem. I just wish Mastermind was actually MAD. Right now, it's still Dex-SAD like every other Rogue.

I just don't like the aesthetics of a puny 8 strength/ 8 dexterity character whose able to handily trounce a warrior with 18's in strength and dexterity in combat because of Charisma or Intelligence...