Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[Aldarc]

You worded the "question" with certain assumptions as if they were givens. If they weren't why word it like that?

Because I didn't think there would such miscommunication over something so minor. Obviously I was wrong.

 

[TwoSix]

Ah... ok should've realized you were speaking about Arcane Tricksters. Well AT's and EK are casters and I think the whole casts spells and fights with Int thing could be potentially unbalancing.

I'd have to see a build utilizing it to say it's unbalanced. I might try building an EK with an assumption of a feature that lets them use Int in place of Str for melee attacks and see what it looks like. I can't say off the top of my head, as I haven't looked at EK much before.

See I would have no problem with the swordsman who relied on preternatural intuition to enhance his combat skill through abilities that allowed his Wisdom to enhance it (but not actually be his combat skill). At a certain level I feel you have to have a baseline level of physical ability for a physical fight. The other character you give seems to me better represented by either her talking her way out of a fight before it happens or being able to redirect attacks, misdirect enemies, etc using Cha checks... but I don't want Charisma as a substitute for Dexterity as a combat attribute.

Well, mechanically, how do you represent a stat contributing to effectiveness in a skill without, well, adding to the skill? And replacement is mechanically much safer than stacking. The other problem for the Cha princess is that shows the stat acting actively, when I liked the feel of it being passive. Her presence alone deterred things from happening to her, not because she was trying to avoid them. Trying to deter people by bluffing or charming them would have spoiled her general theme.

 

[Imaro]

Because I didn't think there would such miscommunication over something so minor. Obviously I was wrong.

So you'd have preferred no one correct your incorrect assumptions??

 

[ChrisCarlson]

What do you mean by "how so"? In case you haven't noticed, I'm the one asking a question. I was curious.

You made a strong implication. To which I "How so'd" do you come to the conclusion that a wizard or bard handily beats a comparable warrior in combat? Where are you getting that belief from? Do you have examples of that happening? Because all my experience with 5e thus far runs counter to that claim.

 

[Aldarc]

So you'd have preferred no one correct your incorrect assumptions??

I would have preferred if you weren't looking to make an issue where there isn't one.

 

[Imaro]

I'd have to see a build utilizing it to say it's unbalanced. I might try building an EK with an assumption of a feature that lets them use Int in place of Str for melee attacks and see what it looks like. I can't say off the top of my head, as I haven't looked at EK much before.

Well since most weapon wielders have to max Str and Dex if they want to optimize for up close and distance combat... but the EK would only have to raise Int to be optimized for both, on top of the (admittedly limited) versatility his spells bring and the fact that he then has more raises to devote to feats which in turn would power him up... I'd have to see some logical checks that balance that out before I'd even begin to think it would be balanced... even moreso for the AT...

Well, mechanically, how do you represent a stat contributing to effectiveness in a skill without, well, adding to the skill? And replacement is mechanically much safer than stacking. The other problem for the Cha princess is that shows the stat acting actively, when I liked the feel of it being passive. Her presence alone deterred things from happening to her, not because she was trying to avoid them. Trying to deter people by bluffing or charming them would have spoiled her general theme.

Hmmm... but you'd still have the misdirection abilities which could be passive... perhaps make them work a number of times equal to Cha bonus... Anyway I'm not designing a class and I think if we keep going back and forth with a hypothetical... my bigger point is going to continuously get lost in the details being picked apart... At the end of the day I'm saying abilities can be created (as shown by the mastermind) that give a certain feel without replacing physical attack stats with mental stats.

 

[Imaro]

I would have preferred if you weren't looking to make an issue where there isn't one.

No you tried to ask me a classic loaded question and got called on it... plain and simple. And instead of saying... yeah my bad, I was wrong, you're now trying to make it seem so trivial that it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Aldarc]

No you tried to ask me a classic loaded question and got called on it... plain and simple. And instead of saying... yeah my bad, I was wrong, you're now trying to make it seem so trivial that it shouldn't be an issue.

And you are pressing an issue where there isn't one. The rest is imaginary on your part. Plain and simple. It was tongue-in-cheek. That's all.

 

[TwoSix]

Well since most weapon wielders have to max Str and Dex if they want to optimize for up close and distance combat... but the EK would only have to raise Int to be optimized for both, on top of the (admittedly limited) versatility his spells bring and the fact that he then has more raises to devote to feats which in turn would power him up... I'd have to see some logical checks that balance that out before I'd even begin to think it would be balanced... even moreso for the AT...

I don't particularly value the ability to switch between melee and ranged easily (although if you do, obviously our overall conclusions would be different). I see most builds focusing on stats to raise their attacks first, their AC second, and HPs third. An EK with Int to attack would focus on Int first, then getting either Dex or Str up, then Con. The only Str & Dex dumping EKs would be the ones willing to eat the movement penalty for using heavy armor at a low Str.

Hmmm... but you'd still have the misdirection abilities which could be passive... perhaps make them work a number of times equal to Cha bonus... Anyway I'm not designing a class and I think if we keep going back and forth with a hypothetical... my bigger point is going to continuously get lost in the details being picked apart... At the end of the day I'm saying abilities can be created (as shown by the mastermind) that give a certain feel without replacing physical attack stats with mental stats.

I agree, you can certainly do it either way. I just think stat replacement is the easiest way to do it, and it also supports aesthetic considerations that I find favorable. I like the concept of super-geniuses learning esoteric sword techniques in just a few weeks, or blind swordsmen guiding their thrusts by the sounds of their enemies' heartbeats.

 

[Orlax]

I don't particularly value the ability to switch between melee and ranged easily (although if you do, obviously our overall conclusions would be different). I see most builds focusing on stats to raise their attacks first, their AC second, and HPs third. An EK with Int to attack would focus on Int first, then getting either Dex or Str up, then Con. The only Str & Dex dumping EKs would be the ones willing to eat the movement penalty for using heavy armor at a low Str.


I agree, you can certainly do it either way. I just think stat replacement is the easiest way to do it, and it also supports aesthetic considerations that I find favorable. I like the concept of super-geniuses learning esoteric sword techniques in just a few weeks, or blind swordsmen guiding their thrusts by the sounds of their enemies' heartbeats.

Without the strength or dexterity to actually perform the strikes none of those things, esoteric sword techniques or sensing the location of enemies via hearing not sight, matters. Without the raw physicality those things are useless. Yes there are techniques that use an enemies strength against them, however even those abilities require you to not be infirm, and do in fact require some level of physicality. If you are physically weak and clumsy no amount of wisdom or intelligence will help you to be a passable physical combatant. It's just the realities of how physical combat actually works.