Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[Hussar]

Without the strength or dexterity to actually perform the strikes none of those things, esoteric sword techniques or sensing the location of enemies via hearing not sight, matters. Without the raw physicality those things are useless. Yes there are techniques that use an enemies strength against them, however even those abilities require you to not be infirm, and do in fact require some level of physicality. If you are physically weak and clumsy no amount of wisdom or intelligence will help you to be a passable physical combatant. It's just the realities of how physical combat actually works.

Yes, but, that's not really what we're talking about. We're talking about someone who is very intelligent and average strength and maybe slightly below average Dex (10 and 8 respectively) being able to use those techniques. We're not talking about someone on crutches. IOW, Sherlock Holmes from the Robert Downey Jr. movies. Average Str and Dex but very capable in combat. Actually, to be honest, I think the Sherlock Holmes movies would be exactly the inspiration for this. Moving over to the wuxia side of the cinema, the aged master kicking ass and taking names fits as well. Mr. Miyagi from The Karate Kid.

There are tons of archetypes exemplifying the idea of the high Int/Cha, low physical stats character being able to hold his own in physical combat.

 

[Remathilis]

Please Pelor, Vecna, and Bane, NEVER return to the time of Melee Training again. You might as well get rid of ability scores if that returns...

 

[Orlax]

Yes, but, that's not really what we're talking about. We're talking about someone who is very intelligent and average strength and maybe slightly below average Dex (10 and 8 respectively) being able to use those techniques. We're not talking about someone on crutches. IOW, Sherlock Holmes from the Robert Downey Jr. movies. Average Str and Dex but very capable in combat. Actually, to be honest, I think the Sherlock Holmes movies would be exactly the inspiration for this. Moving over to the wuxia side of the cinema, the aged master kicking ass and taking names fits as well. Mr. Miyagi from The Karate Kid.

There are tons of archetypes exemplifying the idea of the high Int/Cha, low physical stats character being able to hold his own in physical combat.

No those characters definitely have the physical prowess, it's just not apparent. What they benefit from isn't abilities outside of physicality they benefit from the fact that people don't understand that strong and dexterous don't always look the way people expect them to. Sherlock regularly shows the strength capabilities, sure he isn't sitting at an 18, but he's at least sitting at a 12 or 14. He isn't replacing his attack stat with int he's using his training and experience (a.k.a proficiency bonus) to form a decent striking stratagem, and then using his reasonable strength and dex to execute said plan. Miagi had the dex. He was an active repair man. That meaning he had the strength, dex and constitution to accomplish both basic and advanced repair tasks. One of the main points of the karate kid films is to point out that strength and capability don't always look the same, or as we expect them to.

 

[JediGamemaster]

Please Pelor, Vecna, and Bane, NEVER return to the time of Melee Training again. You might as well get rid of ability scores if that returns...

what is melee training? I know the words, but in this context I can't make any sense

 

[Orlax]

what is melee training? I know the words, but in this context I can't make any sense

It was a series of feats in 4e that allowed you to switch the stat you use to make attack rolls. Inadvertantly they were a complete trap option (if melee attacks were not good on your character by default you were not supposed to be using them)

 

[JediGamemaster]

It was a series of feats in 4e that allowed you to switch the stat you use to make attack rolls. Inadvertantly they were a complete trap option (if melee attacks were not good on your character by default you were not supposed to be using them)

I would hate to see cha or con attacks, and Int is far from my idea (although I guess for a concept or two it might work) I think that a zen combat that focuses on perception and inner eyes... yea Zen combat would be a cool sub class feature for a monk... use wisdom instead of str or dex....

 

[Remathilis]

It was a series of feats in 4e that allowed you to switch the stat you use to make attack rolls. Inadvertantly they were a complete trap option (if melee attacks were not good on your character by default you were not supposed to be using them)

Unless you were a Dex Rogue, a Int Swordmage, a Con Warden, etc. Then they were a feat tax to use a basic attack.

 

[JediGamemaster]

how can it be both a trap and a tax????

 

[Orlax]

Unless you were a Dex Rogue, a Int Swordmage, a Con Warden, etc. Then they were a feat tax to use a basic attack.

Making a melee basic attack with any of those builds was a trap. They should have stuck to at will attacks.

 

[Hussar]

No those characters definitely have the physical prowess, it's just not apparent. What they benefit from isn't abilities outside of physicality they benefit from the fact that people don't understand that strong and dexterous don't always look the way people expect them to. Sherlock regularly shows the strength capabilities, sure he isn't sitting at an 18, but he's at least sitting at a 12 or 14. He isn't replacing his attack stat with int he's using his training and experience (a.k.a proficiency bonus) to form a decent striking stratagem, and then using his reasonable strength and dex to execute said plan. Miagi had the dex. He was an active repair man. That meaning he had the strength, dex and constitution to accomplish both basic and advanced repair tasks. One of the main points of the karate kid films is to point out that strength and capability don't always look the same, or as we expect them to.

Sherlock Holmes was physically stronger than average? Really? Or more Dextrous? Can you point to examples from the movies where you would say that? Mr. Miyagi (and I'm talking about the original Karate Kid with Pat Morita, not Jackie Chan, who I will totally agree is high dex and pretty high str) is this guy:

In what way is he above average str or dex? What evidence would you bring to show that?

Never mind the aging Kung Fu master. Not exactly breaking any strength records. Pretty spry for an old guy, but, again, the whole point of Kung Fu is that you don't have to be strong or fast to be powerful. The whole, "Power of the mind" schtick.