Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[ChrisCarlson]

...being high level helps...

 

[Remathilis]

Making a melee basic attack with any of those builds was a trap. They should have stuck to at will attacks.

Well, except for you can't use at-wills for OAs, Lazylord attacks, or a swordmage's mark ability (making him a really crappy defender).

 

[Orlax]

Sherlock Holmes was physically stronger than average? Really? Or more Dextrous? Can you point to examples from the movies where you would say that? Mr. Miyagi (and I'm talking about the original Karate Kid with Pat Morita, not Jackie Chan, who I will totally agree is high dex and pretty high str) is this guy:

In what way is he above average str or dex? What evidence would you bring to show that?

Never mind the aging Kung Fu master. Not exactly breaking any strength records. Pretty spry for an old guy, but, again, the whole point of Kung Fu is that you don't have to be strong or fast to be powerful. The whole, "Power of the mind" schtick.

You mean how he was incredibly high level? It's called proficiency bonus. Also for advanced dexterity? Straight dodging punches so they land in glass windows sounds about right, or catching flies with chopsticks. At best he has age based negatives on his physical ability scores which he makes up for with high proficiency mods, thanks to a wealth of experience.

EDIT: Heck just being able to use chopsticks with great proficiency to the extent of being able to attempt to catch flies with them is a sign of higher than average dexterity. Most normal people I know don't have the dexterity to be able to use chopsticks so simply by being able to use them I'd place him at, at least a 12, and that's after the age based penalties.

 

[abirdcall]

EDIT: Heck just being able to use chopsticks with great proficiency to the extent of being able to attempt to catch flies with them is a sign of higher than average dexterity. Most normal people I know don't have the dexterity to be able to use chopsticks so simply by being able to use them I'd place him at, at least a 12, and that's after the age based penalties.

It is similar to learning how to hold a pencil.

A lot of people use chopsticks. People from cultures that use chopsticks don't have higher dexterity than people whose cultures don't use them.

That is silly.

I can use chopsticks quite well. I am also quite clumsy and uncoordinated.

 

[JediGamemaster]

It is similar to learning how to hold a pencil.

A lot of people use chopsticks. People from cultures that use chopsticks don't have higher dexterity than people whose cultures don't use them.

That is silly.

I can use chopsticks quite well. I am also quite clumsy and uncoordinated.

you can use them to eat, can you used them to catch even slow bugs

 

[Orlax]

It is similar to learning how to hold a pencil.

A lot of people use chopsticks. People from cultures that use chopsticks don't have higher dexterity than people whose cultures don't use them.

That is silly.

I can use chopsticks quite well. I am also quite clumsy and uncoordinated.

I'd argue two things 1 you are likely not giving yourself enough credit, and 2 no matter your stance that doesn't change the fact that using chopsticks requires a higher than average manual dexterity because using them is in fact a challenge of manual dexterity just like rolling a quarter across your fingers is. If I'm going to get real into it from a hard crunch standpoint it's basically a one tool toolkit that requires proficiency for use and keys off dexterity. So if I'm going with that I suppose it isn't the best example for Miagi because my stance is that he is high level so his proficiency bonus is again shouldering most of the burden there.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Yeah, like others have said, examples like RDJ's Holmes and Mr. Miyagi--or the typical "aged kung-fu master" and blind samurai, to go for more generic instances--aren't examples of people who don't use Str or Dex. They're examples of people who have grown skilled enough--or, in D&D terms, high enough level--that they can overcome the disadvantage of not being as Strong or Dexterous as most of their opponents. The kung-fu master would be even better if he knew what he knew now, but had the body of his 24-year-old self, because his Str and Dex would be better, and he's still using those.

Rules that grant bonuses based on other stats? Viable. Rules that replace Str or Dex for physical combat? I was a big 4E fan, but I really didn't care for it even then. As always, play how you like, but to me that it violates any sense of verisimilitude, fantasy or not.

 

[Hussar]

You mean how he was incredibly high level? It's called proficiency bonus. Also for advanced dexterity? Straight dodging punches so they land in glass windows sounds about right, or catching flies with chopsticks. At best he has age based negatives on his physical ability scores which he makes up for with high proficiency mods, thanks to a wealth of experience.

EDIT: Heck just being able to use chopsticks with great proficiency to the extent of being able to attempt to catch flies with them is a sign of higher than average dexterity. Most normal people I know don't have the dexterity to be able to use chopsticks so simply by being able to use them I'd place him at, at least a 12, and that's after the age based penalties.

You do realize that he couldn't catch the fly right? The kid catches the fly. Mr. Miyagi spends his whole life trying and fails.

 

[Hussar]

I'd argue two things 1 you are likely not giving yourself enough credit, and 2 no matter your stance that doesn't change the fact that using chopsticks requires a higher than average manual dexterity because using them is in fact a challenge of manual dexterity just like rolling a quarter across your fingers is. If I'm going to get real into it from a hard crunch standpoint it's basically a one tool toolkit that requires proficiency for use and keys off dexterity. So if I'm going with that I suppose it isn't the best example for Miagi because my stance is that he is high level so his proficiency bonus is again shouldering most of the burden there.

Using chopsticks requires no more dexterity than using a knife and fork.

The thing is, Mr. Miyagi was NEVER very strong. He might have been slightly more dextrous, but, in D&D terms, you don't exactly lose buckets of Dex for age. As far as I can tell, you don't actually change your stats with age at all in 5e. So, Mr. Miyagi would have the same Str and Dex at 24 as he does now. Even in 3e, the worst he would lose was 3 points of Dex and Str and he's hardly venerable. Heck, he'd qualify as old which is a -1 to Str and Dex. It's entirely possible that Mr. Miyagi's stat changes have no effect.

And there's certainly no evidence that he was a big, strong guy in the past. Nor particularly dextrous. The Venerable Old Master is rarely depicted as some high strength guy.

Isn't that the whole point of the genre- that your power comes not from your physical prowess but your knowledge and skill? IOW, your mental stats?

We already substitute Dex for Str on attacks, so, there is precedence there.

 

[Orlax]

You do realize that he couldn't catch the fly right? The kid catches the fly. Mr. Miyagi spends his whole life trying and fails.

second movie.