Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[TwoSix]

I'm curious, because I never see this talked about at all.. so would you be ok with a character using his physical abilities for mental tasks? And if so at that point what is the purpose of ability scores?

I have no problem with it in theory, although I think the narrative to stretch over it might be more difficult to generate. (Mind over matter is a pretty common trope in fantasy, which makes mental stats for physical activities easier to rationalize.)

I think a primary factor depends on your character and how you visualize them, especially if they have stats that might not match with their overall image. Like if you have a 5' tall, 100 lb girl who is a 5th level fighter with 18 Strength. A character like that probably has a spark of "magic" in them, something that makes them special. Or maybe she was trained in a grueling regimen that turned her into a total badass. Maybe her training was actually in a monastery, and her scholarly ability allowed her to learn some base magic of physical enhancement in addition to arcane theory and knowledge of the Outer Planes and their denizens. She's learned, but simply doesn't have the knack for real arcane casting (hence her 10 Int, but 18 Str and ability to use Strength for Intelligence checks.)

Basically, if you're doing a stat replacement, you're saying the character has 2 disparate abilities, but your inherent ability in both comes from the same source. Than you derive a backstory to explain the source. It helps if you view your characters as comic-book heroes or anime heroes in development, not as medieval Conanesque murderhobos. But again, that's all about the aesthetic you want to develop in your game.

 

[Orlax]

I have no problem with it in theory, although I think the narrative to stretch over it might be more difficult to generate. (Mind over matter is a pretty common trope in fantasy, which makes mental stats for physical activities easier to rationalize.)

I think a primary factor depends on your character and how you visualize them, especially if they have stats that might not match with their overall image. Like if you have a 5' tall, 100 lb girl who is a 5th level fighter with 18 Strength. A character like that probably has a spark of "magic" in them, something that makes them special. Or maybe she was trained in a grueling regimen that turned her into a total badass. Maybe her training was actually in a monastery, and her scholarly ability allowed her to learn some base magic of physical enhancement in addition to arcane theory and knowledge of the Outer Planes and their denizens. She's learned, but simply doesn't have the knack for real arcane casting (hence her 10 Int, but 18 Str and ability to use Strength for Intelligence checks.)

Basically, if you're doing a stat replacement, you're saying the character has 2 disparate abilities, but your inherent ability in both comes from the same source. Than you derive a backstory to explain the source. It helps if you view your characters as comic-book heroes or anime heroes in development, not as medieval Conanesque murderhobos. But again, that's all about the aesthetic you want to develop in your game.

So at that point, what is the purpose of ability scores? In your model someone with an 8 int could figure out calculus because they use stat replacement of some kind to use an 18 strength for int checks. At that point the ability scores mean nothing because the guy that should be a total moron is walking around like a super genius because he can lift heavy objects, and hit people really hard.

 

[TwoSix]

So at that point, what is the purpose of ability scores? In your model someone with an 8 int could figure out calculus because they use stat replacement of some kind to use an 18 strength for int checks. At that point the ability scores mean nothing because the guy that should be a total moron is walking around like a super genius because he can lift heavy objects, and hit people really hard.

Because if they're using a high Strength for Int checks, they're not a total moron, obviously. The stats don't have to be prescriptive. The total sum of what the character is capable of reflects their nature, not their stats.

The reason this works is because the D&D stats are highly abstract, and often bundle concepts together that aren't necessarily lumped together in a more developed character. One can be a fantastic acrobat but a lousy archer. One can have an eidetic memory but be terrible at math. One can be magically powerful but personally unlikable. One can be an average physical specimen but a terror with a blade. Stat replacement (limited to certain skills or checks, of course, not completely ignore one stat) is a way to model these disparities.

 

[Aldarc]

So at that point, what is the purpose of ability scores? In your model someone with an 8 int could figure out calculus because they use stat replacement of some kind to use an 18 strength for int checks. At that point the ability scores mean nothing because the guy that should be a total moron is walking around like a super genius because he can lift heavy objects, and hit people really hard.

I'm not entirely sure what their point is. Casters get to use their primary stat for casting without seemingly having to bother aiming with Dexterity. Their magic does not seem to be in any proportion to their physical abilities. Shillelagh even permits some casters to use their caster stat for melee attacks. More magic exceptionalism, I suppose.

 

[Orlax]

Because if they're using a high Strength for Int checks, they're not a total moron, obviously. The stats don't have to be prescriptive. The total sum of what the character is capable of reflects their nature, not their stats.

The reason this works is because the D&D stats are highly abstract, and often bundle concepts together that aren't necessarily lumped together in a more developed character. One can be a fantastic acrobat but a lousy archer. One can have an eidetic memory but be terrible at math. One can be magically powerful but personally unlikable. One can be an average physical specimen but a terror with a blade. Stat replacement (limited to certain skills or checks, of course, not completely ignore one stat) is a way to model these disparities.

No proficiency bonus is. That near average physicality swordsman makes up for his lack of physicality with proficiency and experience. In 5e one of the core design principles is your stats in fact do define who and what you are. Int of 8 you are an idiot. That's the point. The stats are in fact more expressly and concretely connected to defining who you are, they are the core element of defining who your character is.

 

[Orlax]

I'm not entirely sure what their point is. Casters get to use their primary stat for casting without seemingly having to bother aiming with Dexterity. Their magic does not seem to be in any proportion to their physical abilities. Shillelagh even permits some casters to use their caster stat for melee attacks. More magic exceptionalism, I suppose.

I'm using magic to hit someone with a little ball of fire. I'm in fact just willing that they get hit by a first sized ball of fire. Sure it looks like I'm just firing it out of my hand, but I'm not actually shooting a projectile, I'm willing a ball of fire into existence and to my target's head, using the casting stat to model that makes the most sense.

 

[TwoSix]

No proficiency bonus is. That near average physicality swordsman makes up for his lack of physicality with proficiency and experience. In 5e one of the core design principles is your stats in fact do define who and what you are. Int of 8 you are an idiot. That's the point. The stats are in fact more expressly and concretely connected to defining who you are, they are the core element of defining who your character is.

Not the game the way I play it, thanks. I built plenty of characters my way in Pathfinder and 4e, and I'm houseruling it into several of my homebrewed backgrounds. It's one of my favorite mechanics in those editions, and the bounded stats of 5e make it both more broadly utilitarian and less overpowering, which I like.

Remember, the fact that I make it work proves that it can work. It might simply provide a play experience you don't wish to mimic.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm using magic to hit someone with a little ball of fire. I'm in fact just willing that they get hit by a first sized ball of fire. Sure it looks like I'm just firing it out of my hand, but I'm not actually shooting a projectile, I'm willing a ball of fire into existence and to my target's head, using the casting stat to model that makes the most sense.

And are non-magical people not afforded similar luxuries of creativity when it comes to conceptualizing, for lack of a better term, "mental stat combat"?

 

[Orlax]

And are non-magical people not afforded similar luxuries of creativity when it comes to conceptualizing, for lack of a better term, "mental stat combat"?

Are they using magic to alter the fabric of reality? If yes then totally go for it, you are using magic to rewrite reality.

 

[Aldarc]

Are they using magic to alter the fabric of reality? If yes then totally go for it, you are using magic to rewrite reality.

This is the strange thing about magic in this game. When it's convenient for people, magic suddenly becomes a science that doesn't "rewrite reality" because it's consistent within the physics of the universe. But when that's not a convenient position to take, then magic suddenly becomes something that "alters the fabric of reality" in a manner that is inconsistent with the physics of the universe. This is that bizarre notion of magic exceptionalism that I find at once peculiar and frustrating. It time and time and time again provides casters with 'get out of fairness free cards' that are not permitted to non-casters such that there is very little drawback for primary casters because it's one stat fits all.