Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[Imaro]

Using chopsticks requires no more dexterity than using a knife and fork.

The thing is, Mr. Miyagi was NEVER very strong. He might have been slightly more dextrous, but, in D&D terms, you don't exactly lose buckets of Dex for age. As far as I can tell, you don't actually change your stats with age at all in 5e. So, Mr. Miyagi would have the same Str and Dex at 24 as he does now. Even in 3e, the worst he would lose was 3 points of Dex and Str and he's hardly venerable. Heck, he'd qualify as old which is a -1 to Str and Dex. It's entirely possible that Mr. Miyagi's stat changes have no effect.

I think it takes a pretty high Dexterity to snatch flies out the air with chopsticks...

[video=youtube;EMjGfn3iXhs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMjGfn3iXhs[/video]

 

[Orlax]

Using chopsticks requires no more dexterity than using a knife and fork.

The thing is, Mr. Miyagi was NEVER very strong. He might have been slightly more dextrous, but, in D&D terms, you don't exactly lose buckets of Dex for age. As far as I can tell, you don't actually change your stats with age at all in 5e. So, Mr. Miyagi would have the same Str and Dex at 24 as he does now. Even in 3e, the worst he would lose was 3 points of Dex and Str and he's hardly venerable. Heck, he'd qualify as old which is a -1 to Str and Dex. It's entirely possible that Mr. Miyagi's stat changes have no effect.

And there's certainly no evidence that he was a big, strong guy in the past. Nor particularly dextrous. The Venerable Old Master is rarely depicted as some high strength guy.

Isn't that the whole point of the genre- that your power comes not from your physical prowess but your knowledge and skill? IOW, your mental stats?

We already substitute Dex for Str on attacks, so, there is precedence there.

No, anyone that actually does martial arts can attest, no amount of knowledge will be of any use if your body can't hold up to the task. That's why martial artists train religiously, to keep their bodies in peak physical performance capability. Yes there are some movies that employ some level of "kung fu magic" but that's freaking magic. Also lets not confuse Pat Morita, the actor, and Kesuke Miyagi, the character he played. Pat Morita is a comedian, and actor who at the age of 2 got spinal TB, spent 9 years cycling through various Northern California hospitals, and after extensive spinal surgery and relearning how to walk was moved to an internment camp during WWII, didn't actually know a lick of karate or any kind of martial arts, and spent his life post internment life wracking up actor and comedian creds like working for Groundlings. Kesuke Miyagi was an Okinawan Japanese Immigrant that grew up learning martial arts, immigrated to the US to avoid fighting and quite likely winning a fight to the death, was placed in an internment camp in California, and then entered the US army, specifically ending up in the 442 infantry regiment (one of the most decorated regiments in the history of the army, including 12 medal of honor recipients) where he taught his commanding officer karate. I'm going to say this guy had a long life where he was in fact quite physically capable, he passed army training practices, and was in the most decorated army regiment of all time where he taught his commanding officer karate. Yes Pat Morita looks like someone that was likely far from physically imposing for his entire life, however the character he played was one with a long, active and physically demanding life.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Normally I would put this in one of the Warlord threads, but the only one on the main page (yeah, there's only one now guys!) is too context-specific for it, so it has to default to this thread instead. I did a quick skim of the previous 15 pages and didn't see anyone mention these points, so I'm *hoping* I'm not just rehashing something that's already been discussed. If so, I apologize--I know I hate having to answer the same questions over and over, even if every time they are asked in earnest. Anyway...

I'm seriously surprised that this Mastermind archetype hasn't been met with the forum equivalent of armed resistance. It seems to violate a number of rhetorical points made against the creation of a Warlord, without having earned a single peep of anger or offense (from what I can tell). Specifically:

1. "Master of Tactics"? Oh no, we're giving tactics stuff to classes that aren't the Fighter! The Fighter will be useless/meaningless/sidelined now! Except...nobody's saying that. People have noted how limited it is at 3rd level (only giving the Help action--though at no cost to the Rogue except her action), but I haven't seen a single person complain that this is stripping the Fighter of its martial significance. Why not? Isn't this exactly the same kind of thing, different merely in degree?

2. Spooky action at a distance! How is this Help action suddenly extended to a 30' distance, when no other characters can do the same thing? The Mastermind can't use magic. How can it Help others attack an enemy at a distance when a Fighter or Barbarian--masters of physical combat--cannot do so? Yet I haven't seen even the vague rumblings that point 1 got--nobody seems to mind that a purely non-magical character can achieve a simple action which other characters cannot.

3. Mundane abilities being more powerful than magic!! This is the one that really gets me. This Rogue, through explicitly no means other than skill and talent, is more powerful than a magic spell. Through 100% non-magical means, it becomes immune to a form of magic (compulsion to tell the truth, detection of truth/lies). Sure, it's a high-level ability, but doesn't this bother anybody?

How did the Mastermind so...masterfully succeed at dodging ire?

 

[Hussar]

Normally I would put this in one of the Warlord threads, but the only one on the main page (yeah, there's only one now guys!) is too context-specific for it, so it has to default to this thread instead. I did a quick skim of the previous 15 pages and didn't see anyone mention these points, so I'm *hoping* I'm not just rehashing something that's already been discussed. If so, I apologize--I know I hate having to answer the same questions over and over, even if every time they are asked in earnest. Anyway...

I'm seriously surprised that this Mastermind archetype hasn't been met with the forum equivalent of armed resistance. It seems to violate a number of rhetorical points made against the creation of a Warlord, without having earned a single peep of anger or offense (from what I can tell). Specifically:

1. "Master of Tactics"? Oh no, we're giving tactics stuff to classes that aren't the Fighter! The Fighter will be useless/meaningless/sidelined now! Except...nobody's saying that. People have noted how limited it is at 3rd level (only giving the Help action--though at no cost to the Rogue except her action), but I haven't seen a single person complain that this is stripping the Fighter of its martial significance. Why not? Isn't this exactly the same kind of thing, different merely in degree?

2. Spooky action at a distance! How is this Help action suddenly extended to a 30' distance, when no other characters can do the same thing? The Mastermind can't use magic. How can it Help others attack an enemy at a distance when a Fighter or Barbarian--masters of physical combat--cannot do so? Yet I haven't seen even the vague rumblings that point 1 got--nobody seems to mind that a purely non-magical character can achieve a simple action which other characters cannot.

3. Mundane abilities being more powerful than magic!! This is the one that really gets me. This Rogue, through explicitly no means other than skill and talent, is more powerful than a magic spell. Through 100% non-magical means, it becomes immune to a form of magic (compulsion to tell the truth, detection of truth/lies). Sure, it's a high-level ability, but doesn't this bother anybody?

How did the Mastermind so...masterfully succeed at dodging ire?

Presentation is key. It's 100% about presentation. The issues were never about anything of substance.

 

[Imaro]

1. "Master of Tactics"? Oh no, we're giving tactics stuff to classes that aren't the Fighter! The Fighter will be useless/meaningless/sidelined now! Except...nobody's saying that. People have noted how limited it is at 3rd level (only giving the Help action--though at no cost to the Rogue except her action), but I haven't seen a single person complain that this is stripping the Fighter of its martial significance. Why not? Isn't this exactly the same kind of thing, different merely in degree?

Wait what... the "tactics" of the Mastermind are pretty different from the combat tactics of the battlemaster. See the problem with the warlord in this area, at least as far as I remember the discussions was that warlord fans were clamoring for the battlemaster's tactics (maneuvers)... plus higher level tactics (maneuvers)... plus more tactics (maneuvers)... plus more dice (better at maneuvers). So yeah that kinda does overshadow or obsolete (depending on how far thus hypothetical class would go) the battlemaster/fighter in so far as the arena of combat tactics go.

2. Spooky action at a distance! How is this Help action suddenly extended to a 30' distance, when no other characters can do the same thing? The Mastermind can't use magic. How can it Help others attack an enemy at a distance when a Fighter or Barbarian--masters of physical combat--cannot do so? Yet I haven't seen even the vague rumblings that point 1 got--nobody seems to mind that a purely non-magical character can achieve a simple action which other characters cannot.

This was never a complaint (at least not by the majority of opponents to the warlord I saw in the previous threads)... oh, and for the record the fighter can do this...it's called Distracting Strike and can be used at range. In fact the more I read the above passage the less and less it makes sense... of course a purely non-magical character can achieve actions which other characters cannot... Battlemaster maneuvers... Champion's extended crit range...Rogue's Cunning Action... so what exactly are you talking about. The complaint, at least for me was that the archetype of the warlord was, in a large share of fiction, an add-on to other more prominent/known archetypes... thus why I like the Mastermind... it continues in the same vein as the Battlemaster. Great battle leaders, guild masters, leaders of magical cabals, high priests of gods, etc. all display the same type of inspirational leadership people want a warlord to have so just make it a build of each of the other classes, especially since multi-classing is optional.

3. Mundane abilities being more powerful than magic!! This is the one that really gets me. This Rogue, through explicitly no means other than skill and talent, is more powerful than a magic spell. Through 100% non-magical means, it becomes immune to a form of magic (compulsion to tell the truth, detection of truth/lies). Sure, it's a high-level ability, but doesn't this bother anybody?

You do realize that mundane already exceeds magic in other areas... right? Mindless rage for the barbarian, Indomitable for the fighter...Feral Senses for the ranger vs. Invisibility... and so on. So why should that bother anyone. What bothered many about the warlord was the whole... he does his inspiring while you're unconscious and/or dying and it still works aspect of healing. That just isn't how a large number of people are willing to accept that inspirational war cries and motivational speeches work... regardless of the minuscule evidence that this might be possible... it's not what many/most people are willing to accept.

How did the Mastermind so...masterfully succeed at dodging ire?

He didn't... it seems like you failed to understand the actual complaints against the warlord...

 

[Imaro]

Presentation is key. It's 100% about presentation. The issues were never about anything of substance.

<sarcasm>Thank you for choosing to speak for everyone who had a problem with the warlord, your ability to read minds is as astounding as your aptitude for being unbiased... <end sarcasm>

 

[Orlax]

Normally I would put this in one of the Warlord threads, but the only one on the main page (yeah, there's only one now guys!) is too context-specific for it, so it has to default to this thread instead. I did a quick skim of the previous 15 pages and didn't see anyone mention these points, so I'm *hoping* I'm not just rehashing something that's already been discussed. If so, I apologize--I know I hate having to answer the same questions over and over, even if every time they are asked in earnest. Anyway...

I'm seriously surprised that this Mastermind archetype hasn't been met with the forum equivalent of armed resistance. It seems to violate a number of rhetorical points made against the creation of a Warlord, without having earned a single peep of anger or offense (from what I can tell). Specifically:

1. "Master of Tactics"? Oh no, we're giving tactics stuff to classes that aren't the Fighter! The Fighter will be useless/meaningless/sidelined now! Except...nobody's saying that. People have noted how limited it is at 3rd level (only giving the Help action--though at no cost to the Rogue except her action), but I haven't seen a single person complain that this is stripping the Fighter of its martial significance. Why not? Isn't this exactly the same kind of thing, different merely in degree?

2. Spooky action at a distance! How is this Help action suddenly extended to a 30' distance, when no other characters can do the same thing? The Mastermind can't use magic. How can it Help others attack an enemy at a distance when a Fighter or Barbarian--masters of physical combat--cannot do so? Yet I haven't seen even the vague rumblings that point 1 got--nobody seems to mind that a purely non-magical character can achieve a simple action which other characters cannot.

3. Mundane abilities being more powerful than magic!! This is the one that really gets me. This Rogue, through explicitly no means other than skill and talent, is more powerful than a magic spell. Through 100% non-magical means, it becomes immune to a form of magic (compulsion to tell the truth, detection of truth/lies). Sure, it's a high-level ability, but doesn't this bother anybody?

How did the Mastermind so...masterfully succeed at dodging ire?

I've always been a fan of warlord type classes being Subclasses and have often said that rogue would be a good place to put it. Issue number 1 isn't really a problem for me. My position isn't that tactical capability be locked to the fighter just that such tactical abilities shouldn't be on a character with no combat prowess of any kind. In fact with the way they have created it this guy isn't just helping tactically in combat he can help another character with a skill based task as a bonus action while also performing a skill based task of their own. I in fact think this capability sits better in the rogue Subclasses than in the fighter because it also interacts heavily with ability checks. Issue 2 hasn't been brought up because this subclass is predicated on help actions and their help being better than other character's help. I'm fine with it being a capability they have that others don't because it is their bread and butter. I'm fine with the fact that the fighter can't use a help action from 30 feet away. They, specifically the battle masters, have at least a few attacks that can accomplish the same end (giving a future attacker advantage), and possibly even to a greater effect (distracting shot, and trip attack at least). These abilities may be used from range as a part of a multi attack and could even be used on multiple targets within the same turn. Essentially issue 2 hasn't come up because the fighter is still better at it. Issue 3 is just a bunch of BS. Mundanes regularly get mundane capabilities that match, or even exceed, those of casters. Heck some racial bonuses include resistance to magical capabilities. Hell the thief gets use magic device which makes him more capable of using magic items than any caster or any character. It allows the thief to use scrolls like all spells are in his spell list and allows him to get the full effects of a holy avenger.

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah, like others have said, examples like RDJ's Holmes and Mr. Miyagi--or the typical "aged kung-fu master" and blind samurai, to go for more generic instances--aren't examples of people who don't use Str or Dex. They're examples of people who have grown skilled enough--or, in D&D terms, high enough level--that they can overcome the disadvantage of not being as Strong or Dexterous as most of their opponents. The kung-fu master would be even better if he knew what he knew now, but had the body of his 24-year-old self, because his Str and Dex would be better, and he's still using those.

Rules that grant bonuses based on other stats? Viable. Rules that replace Str or Dex for physical combat? I was a big 4E fan, but I really didn't care for it even then. As always, play how you like, but to me that it violates any sense of verisimilitude, fantasy or not.

I agree that you certainly can use level as the measurement for superior ability, and it's certainly a viable route for modeling genre conventions around skilled aged masters of various sorts.

But, if you want to model the most skilled individuals, at least in 5e, you need a combination of proficiency bonus and stat bonus to achieve the best overall bonus. Stat replacement is the most straightforward way to model characters who use studied esoteric techniques, or senses so acute they border on precognition, or just overall mystical presence to be fierce combatants.

 

[Imaro]

I agree that you certainly can use level as the measurement for superior ability, and it's certainly a viable route for modeling genre conventions around skilled aged masters of various sorts.

But, if you want to model the most skilled individuals, at least in 5e, you need a combination of proficiency bonus and stat bonus to achieve the best overall bonus. Stat replacement is the most straightforward way to model characters who use studied esoteric techniques, or senses so acute they border on precognition, or just overall mystical presence to be fierce combatants.

I'm curious, because I never see this talked about at all.. so would you be ok with a character using his physical abilities for mental tasks? And if so at that point what is the purpose of ability scores?

 

[Remathilis]

A mastermind to me passes smell test because it interacts well with the fiction and mechanics. Master of Tactics grants help to one person, but leaves the type open to DM interpretation. And while advantage is potent, is not screwing up the math or action economy. The rogue loses his bonus action to twf or CA to do it, for example, and he's not adding numbers bloat. ("Add the rogue's Int mod to hit").

However, even if we added MOT to a battlemaster in exchange for say, their 3rd and 4th attack, it's not going to be powerful enough for most warlord fans. Because the warlord is the Ultimate Master of Tactics, so he must now be better at it than the rogue, just like how he must be better than the battlemaster.