Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[Aldarc]

Reported.

Your prerogative.

Also, wrong. Feeling? Really? You are attributing negativity where there is none. I'll bet you didn't even know that I loved 4e and played it for the entirety of it's run. Faithfully and regularly. Both in Organized Play and home campaigns. So when I say that the only way to play a 4e warlord is to play 4e, that's not an insult. It is a recommendation. And the only logical one.

I know you played 4e. But I also know that you keep mischaracterizing what warlord fans want in 5e, with your "warlord fans want everything" being a popular strawman mantra of sorts that you keep throwing around. I don't care if you liked 4e or not. My only issue is that you need to respectfully listen to others and stop with these absurd mischaracterizations when it comes to the warlord and its fans. That's it.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

not just wrlord, but prestige classes and subclass too...
anything I make is a good starting point for a discussion on how to do something, but most would make horrible ending places without a lot of playtesting and finish touch up...

Heh.

there isn't a warlord concept in that book, there is a way to kitbash it almost if you take a bunch of things and tweek them (refulff and multi at high level), but the concept itself isn't... infact 1/3 the kitbash is from a preview for a new book not the phb

Not per the devs. The 5e warlord is found in the battlemaster fighter. Plain and simple. In style and substance (No, it is not a 4e warlord. Neither is a 5e cleric a 4e cleric. Nor an 5e assassin a 4e assassin). There are also a couple of feats that enhance the warlord concept even further. And MC can potentially take it further still. But at the end of the day, battlemaster is warlord. That's per the devs. You (and others) can hate that if you want. But it doesn't change the facts.

The same complaints are being made of the 5e ranger. It's not the 4e ranger and that makes some people sad and/or angry and/or disappointed. But when you lose the previous edition baggage, it's fine. Or better than fine, if you ask some.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I know you played 4e. But I also know that you keep mischaracterizing what warlord fans want in 5e, with your "warlord fans want everything" being a popular strawman mantra of sorts that you keep throwing around. I don't care if you liked 4e or not. My only issue is that you need to respectfully listen to others and stop with these absurd mischaracterizations when it comes to the warlord and its fans. That's it.

Is that you mischaracterizing me? The irony.

I've read all the "what the warlord should have" posts. There's even been pro-warlord posters pointing out that there is no consensus on what a warlord should be or have. And so, in order to achieve everything the various people want, you have to give it the kitchen sink.

How about this: Tell me what the warlord should be able to do. Itemized and in black-and-white. Break it down. I'll let you know when you've hit the "warlord fans want everything" benchmark.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

ok that's cool but I don't want to play a 4e warlord... I want to play a 5e version of the class...

I want wotc to look at the 3 main sources (maybe there are more let me know) the warlord of 4e the marshal of 3e and the white ravon tactics of Bo9S and make not a direct 1-1 exchange but a 5e class that stands with the others as an equal and fun character to play...

Battlemaster. Done.

 

[Orlax]

Your prerogative.

I know you played 4e. But I also know that you keep mischaracterizing what warlord fans want in 5e, with your "warlord fans want everything" being a popular strawman mantra of sorts that you keep throwing around. I don't care if you liked 4e or not. My only issue is that you need to respectfully listen to others and stop with these absurd mischaracterizations when it comes to the warlord and its fans. That's it.

To be fair, that is exactly what we have been going over for the past few pages. I suggested a 12th level build that encapsulates what people want (admittedly with a little extra, but that extra actually goes to accomplishing the what I want to be able to do as a warlord type character) and the near immediate answers were basically 'I want to be able to do all those things at level 3', and 'I want to be able to do all of those things like that but a little weaker at level 3' (granting attacks and advantage to attacks don't have weaker incarnations within the design scope of this edition).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Battlemaster. Done.

I think we both know that the battle master is at best a weak attempt at giving the fighter a complex build but it falls short on a lot of the build. It is built to attack 2-8 times per round and primarily be dpr and control it is very poor at being a warlord

 

[GMforPowergamers]

To be fair, that is exactly what we have been going over for the past few pages. I suggested a 12th level build that encapsulates what people want (admittedly with a little extra, but that extra actually goes to accomplishing the what I want to be able to do as a warlord type character) and the near immediate answers were basically 'I want to be able to do all those things at level 3', and 'I want to be able to do all of those things like that but a little weaker at level 3' (granting attacks and advantage to attacks don't have weaker incarnations within the design scope of this edition).

to be fair we aren't asking for everything but most of these builds are another class and concept for most of there lives we want a low power first level and third level class

 

[TwoSix]

To be fair, that is exactly what we have been going over for the past few pages. I suggested a 12th level build that encapsulates what people want (admittedly with a little extra, but that extra actually goes to accomplishing the what I want to be able to do as a warlord type character) and the near immediate answers were basically 'I want to be able to do all those things at level 3', and 'I want to be able to do all of those things like that but a little weaker at level 3' (granting attacks and advantage to attacks don't have weaker incarnations within the design scope of this edition).

Yes, because it isn't too strong to grant attack bonuses to a class at level 3 if that or something similar is their defining characteristic. I mean, no one is complaining about all the characters that get bless at level 1, which is almost certainly stronger.

I can't help it that I'm right.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I think we both know that the battle master is at best a weak attempt at giving the fighter a complex build but it falls short on a lot of the build. It is built to attack 2-8 times per round and primarily be dpr and control it is very poor at being a warlord

Based on what benchmark? What filter are you using to devalue it? What comparisons (to other 5e classes) are you making to judge it falling short as representative?

 

[Orlax]

Yes, because it isn't too strong to grant attack bonuses to a class at level 3 if that or something similar is their defining characteristic. I mean, no one is complaining about all the characters that get bless at level 1, which is almost certainly stronger.

I can't help it that I'm right.

Actually I've definitely seen complaints about bless. What is too strong at level three: being able to grant attacks that automatically have advantage and being able to do it from range with superiority dice. That while also being able to heal like a cleric, use bardic inspiration style dice to hand out hanging attack and defense bonuses for exactly when they would be useful. All while having the best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game and a mid range hit die and a heafty skill capability. Fom there the most regular suggestion is to meld the superiority dice and the inspiration dice. That doesn't actually take any capability away, it just makes the tracking easier by taking two dice pools and turning them into one. Ooh and it also makes it so you'd never actually use the inspiration features because the smart way to play would be to always hold the dice for superiority style usage because they are the obvious better choice in most situations. Since if left hanging on an ally you can't use them to hand out an attack without wasting the one you had hanging on an ally.