Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[Imaro]

Yeah, I get that. I'm just disappointed. There should be viable builds for STR rogues (thugs), INT rogues (mastermind, arcane trickster), and CHA rogues (con man or rake). There's just so much that keys off of Dexterity -- it's so effective -- that there is a much more limited diversity of builds and less need for system mastery. Sure you can do it, but there should be some incentive to break DEX's tyranny.

I think I'm glad they decided to keep it this way. It avoids the inherent problems with MAD, it keeps it simple, and in all honesty I was never a fan of the physical attacks with any stat philosophy of 4e. But I realize that's just personal opinion.

 

[brehobit]

OK, I love the 3rd level abilities. Interesting, cool skills, etc. I'd perhaps have thrown in a language rather than a gaming prof., but eh.

The level 9 is too weak. No real combat utility. It really needs something else in addition. Perhaps an upgrade of help (a creature you aid with a bonus action gets +2* your INT to damage on their attack if it hits? Fairly minor (+10 damage is nice, but probably will be +4 or +6) but something. Or maybe "luck favors the prepared": If an ally rolls a "1" on a save or skill check you can grant them a reroll 1/short rest. Something that helps in combat. The other rogue archetypes get something (sometimes large) combat related. So should they all. The 3rd level power is nice, but not so nice it needs to steal level 9's stuff.

 

[Orlax]

Two mastermind rogues that work with each other. All the sneak attack all the time, and they can get it from range. Also their skill coverage would be nasty.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yeah, I get that. I'm just disappointed. There should be viable builds for STR rogues (thugs), INT rogues (mastermind, arcane trickster), and CHA rogues (con man or rake). There's just so much that keys off of Dexterity -- it's so effective -- that there is a much more limited diversity of builds and less need for system mastery. Sure you can do it, but there should be some incentive to break DEX's tyranny.

The main issue is that everything a rogue might want got piled into dex because dex is the rogue stat. If you grant rogues medium armor proficiency and use the variant rules for different ability scores on checks, it breaks a lot of the dex monopoly. It also makes int a better stat, because lots of things that make sense to use intelligence for have been assigned to other stats for historical or class reasons (medicine is wisdom because clerics, survival and perception are wisdom because rangers, pickpocket and disabling traps are dex because rogues, and intelligence gets nothing because wizards should only be able to cast spells and do nothing else).

 

[Kobold Stew]

The main issue is that everything a rogue might want got piled into dex because dex is the rogue stat.

This is circular, though -- Dex is the rogue stat because everything a rogue might want got piled into dex.

It didn't need to be that way: it was a choice; and (we now see) it's one they continue with the Mastermind. That's all I'm saying.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I HR many skills to int, including disable device. And disguise. It helps.

 

[Saeviomagy]

This is circular, though -- Dex is the rogue stat because everything a rogue might want got piled into dex.

It didn't need to be that way: it was a choice; and (we now see) it's one they continue with the Mastermind. That's all I'm saying.

My point was meant to be that it was a bad thing, basically for the reason you cite.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SCAG_RoguishArchetype_m39d.pdf

I like it, will make for great Trust agents in an Eberron game.

I like it. For the first time I have some desire to play a Rogue. I especially like the non-combat features like accent imitation in only one minute--that is approximately as useful as the Assassin's 7th and 13th level features but comes much earlier. Plus, you get one of the best parts of Battlemaster as well, in Insightful Manipulator's ability to size creatures up outside of combat.

I think I'd enjoy playing a Ranger/Mastermind. 3 attacks per round plus a bonus Help at 8th level, yumm. A Mastermind/Warlock might be fun too.

I like the thought of a Mastermind grappling an enemy with Expertise and then dodging while he Helps his allies finish the enemy off.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I still can't believe they are actually continuing to use that awful halflling art.

Who says it's a halfling? Maybe that's a Mastermind goblin!

 

[Kalshane]

I'm digging this a lot (terrible art aside) and am seriously considering doing a multi-class with my Spy background Lore Bard (with the Actor feat) as it's right up his alley.

I do agree that there should be more reasons for rogues to boost more than Dex, though.