Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[pukunui]

Getting adv is rare in my game, and/or has a significant opportunity cost, unlike this ability.

It seems to me like all of your objections are based on the fact that you've modified the game in such a way that this ability is more potent than it is intended to be. Of course you're not going to like it!

 

[Imaro]

Just wondering, do you also remove the Barbarian's Reckless Attack feature? Or their 3rd level Wolf totem feature? The Battlemaster's Distracting Strike? Shadow Step? Versatile Trickster? Tides of Chaos?

Yeah the Wolf Totem feature means nearly all of the melee characters in my game get continuous advantage...

 

[Psikerlord#]

Just wondering, do you also remove the Barbarian's Reckless Attack feature? Or their 3rd level Wolf totem feature? The Battlemaster's Distracting Strike? Shadow Step? Versatile Trickster? Tides of Chaos?

No. But none of those are the same as this ability.

 

[Psikerlord#]

It seems to me like all of your objections are based on the fact that you've modified the game in such a way that this ability is more potent than it is intended to be. Of course you're not going to like it!

Perhaps youre right.

It's true I've modified the game some: nerfing a couple of feats and abilities and removing passive perception. Hiding has always been DM discretion but I am certainly in the "hiding is hard mid-combat" camp.

I also use 1, 2 and 3 point modifiers in addition to adv/disad. Bec ad/disad is rare-ish in my game, this ability seems too spamhappy for me!

 

[pukunui]

Perhaps youre right.

Thank you. And for the record, I don't think there's anything "wrong" with the way you've modified the game. It's just that those modifications are coloring your opinion of this new class ability.

 

[Azzy]

Well I dont allow hiding in combat, mostly, and we dont use the disengage action either (too easy mode, we just use dodge). So, in a more difficult game, this is pretty OP.

So, this ability is OP in your house-ruled version of the game? Since you've already house-ruled your game, you can house-rule this ability, too.

That aside, you shouldn't conflate an ability being OP due to your house rules with that ability actually being OP.

 

[Kobold Stew]

So, back to the topic of the thread...

I love Master of Tactics -- it's powerful (comparable and possibly better than the Assassin ability), but only because it makes others in the party stronger -- it's an ability that promotes working together. I think that's great, and would synergies particularly well with a Paladin 6 or a ranged build -- multiple ways to make it work.

So while the mechanics are sweet, the flavour doesn't seem (to me) to match it -- I'd expect "Mastermind" to be an Intelligence build for the rogue, but none of the abilities key off of Int, Wis, or Cha -- its still the basic DEX-based rogue as ever. That, to me, is the disappointment: The mastermind is still dumping Intelligence most of the time; there's no diversity in the build.

(As a smaller thing: granting the same two tool kits as Charlatans get shows where some of the overlap is. I'm not concerned, but it does suggest something a bit awry.)

 

[Psikerlord#]

So, this ability is OP in your house-ruled version of the game? Since you've already house-ruled your game, you can house-rule this ability, too.

That aside, you shouldn't conflate an ability being OP due to your house rules with that ability actually being OP.

I still label it borderline OP under standard rules. But enough from me on this topic.

 

[Hussar]

So, back to the topic of the thread...

I love Master of Tactics -- it's powerful (comparable and possibly better than the Assassin ability), but only because it makes others in the party stronger -- it's an ability that promotes working together. I think that's great, and would synergies particularly well with a Paladin 6 or a ranged build -- multiple ways to make it work.

So while the mechanics are sweet, the flavour doesn't seem (to me) to match it -- I'd expect "Mastermind" to be an Intelligence build for the rogue, but none of the abilities key off of Int, Wis, or Cha -- its still the basic DEX-based rogue as ever. That, to me, is the disappointment: The mastermind is still dumping Intelligence most of the time; there's no diversity in the build.

(As a smaller thing: granting the same two tool kits as Charlatans get shows where some of the overlap is. I'm not concerned, but it does suggest something a bit awry.)

I imagine that they're trying to avoid MAD. It's still a rogue, so Dex is going to be the prime stat. Subclasses don't key off of new stats, do they? Since a lot of the rogue skills and certainly combat effectiveness keys off of Dex, it's not surprising that they keep Dex as the prime stat. It's more just an artifact of the game.

But, yeah, it does seem kinda wonky that I'm an 8 Int Mastermind. Although, in retrospect, it would explain a LOT of villains out there.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I imagine that they're trying to avoid MAD. It's still a rogue, so Dex is going to be the prime stat. Subclasses don't key off of new stats, do they? Since a lot of the rogue skills and certainly combat effectiveness keys off of Dex, it's not surprising that they keep Dex as the prime stat. It's more just an artifact of the game.

But, yeah, it does seem kinda wonky that I'm an 8 Int Mastermind. Although, in retrospect, it would explain a LOT of villains out there.

Yeah, I get that. I'm just disappointed. There should be viable builds for STR rogues (thugs), INT rogues (mastermind, arcane trickster), and CHA rogues (con man or rake). There's just so much that keys off of Dexterity -- it's so effective -- that there is a much more limited diversity of builds and less need for system mastery. Sure you can do it, but there should be some incentive to break DEX's tyranny.