D&D (2024) Rogue Weapon mastery and Pact weapons

[Charlaquin]

The Cantrip upgrade specifically includes a damage component. Are you really arguing that the "Cantrip upgrade" is not part of the Cantrip?

I’m saying what the “cantrip upgrade” part of the cantrip does is increase the damage of the attack, because that’s literally what it says it does. The attack is still the thing that’s dealing the damage.

Also if you want to get technical on semantics you need to use the actual wording. AB does not say it adds your spellcasting ability modifier to "a cantrip that deals damage"

Read the very first sentence of the invocation. It explicitly says “choose one of your Warlock Cantrips that deals damage.”

What agonizing blast says is that "you can add your spellcasting ability modifier to that spell's damage rolls."

Yes it does. And the “that spell” referred to is the one you chose, which had to be a Warlock Cantrip that deals damage. Also, true strike doesn’t have damage rolls. It allows you to make an attack with a weapon, and modifies the damage rolls of the weapon attack.

 

[Charlaquin]

I see it as a cantrip that does damage with a weapon attack as part of that damage. Here is the sage advice...

That sage advice clarifies that the attack made with green flame blade is an attack, and interacts with features like sneak attack that trigger on attacks. That has nothing to do with the point under discussion in this thread, which is whether or not true strike is a spell that deals damage. The attack status is just not what’s in question.

 

[MarkB]

That's a completely different interaction. Sneak Attack deals extra damage when you hit with an attack, and the effect of green flame blade includes making an attack. Agonizing Blast adds your spellcasting ability modifier to the damage you deal with a cantrip that deals damage. The question is not if True Strike counts as an attack (it absolutely does), it's if True Strike deals damage. And I think the text is pretty clear on the matter - it does not. It allows you to make an attack, and it modifies the properties of that attack (including what damage it deals). But the source of the damage is still clearly the attack, not the cantrip.

You make an attack as part of the spell. Any damage dealt is therefore also part of the spell.

 

[Pauln6]

That sage advice clarifies that the attack made with green flame blade is an attack, and interacts with features like sneak attack that trigger on attacks. That has nothing to do with the point under discussion in this thread, which is whether or not true strike is a spell that deals damage. The attack status is just not what’s in question.

I recall in the playtest that the cantrips were charged to a magical action, which would not trigger sneak attack, as a way of avoiding magic initiate scaling damage and full class sneak attack scaling. Has it been confirmed that this exploit remains now then? Really they should have met half way but it's only really single classed rogues that can really push it.

 

[ECMO3]

I recall in the playtest that the cantrips were charged to a magical action, which would not trigger sneak attack, as a way of avoiding magic initiate scaling damage and full class sneak attack scaling. Has it been confirmed that this exploit remains now then? Really they should have met half way but it's only really single classed rogues that can really push it.

I don't have a copy of the PHB, but the verbiage I have seen online is:

"Once per turn, you can deal extra damage to one creature you hit with an attack roll if you’re attacking with a Finesse or Ranged weapon ...."

Using the term "attack roll" would indicate they specifically wanted to allow it to work regardless of action type.

 

[Pauln6]

I don't have a copy of the PHB, but the verbiage I have seen online is:

"Once per turn, you can deal extra damage to one creature you hit with an attack roll if you’re attacking with a Finesse or Ranged weapon ...."

Using the term "attack roll" would indicate they specifically wanted to allow it to work regardless of action type.

Thinking about it, presumably you won't be able to attack from hidden with advantage because casting the spell breaks the invisible condition and the attack is not part of the spell. Maybe that is the balancing factor?

 

[Liann]

Yes damaging cantrips like Truestrike! And this was discussed at length during the playtest, it was also discussed how it was going to stack and was previously discussed on this board in the posts about the 2024 Warlock and this is the first time I have seen anyone suggest this.

If you want to play it this way at your table that is fine, but RAW and RAI AB clearly works with Truestrike (and Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade if you are playing with those).

I'm a bit late to the discussion but I thought I'd chip in in case someone else reads it later: Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade are Evocation cantrips, which means they are causing the damage. True Strike is divination, which means it's giving you an insight, guiding your hand, just as it says in the description: "Guided by a flash of magical insight". It also says "If the attack deals damage", which is referring to the weapon attack mentioned previously: "one attack with the weapon used". It is very clear to me it is the weapon attack that deals damage, the cantrip is just aiding you to "hit better". As a DM I know there's always players who want to power game and they interpret the rules however they want to abuse them. Whenever you have a player like that you can either give them what they want and let them ruin the game, or kick them out of the table. I hope you are not that player in your table.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm a bit late to the discussion but I thought I'd chip in in case someone else reads it later: Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade are Evocation cantrips, which means they are causing the damage. True Strike is divination, which means it's giving you an insight, guiding your hand, just as it says in the description: "Guided by a flash of magical insight". It also says "If the attack deals damage", which is referring to the weapon attack mentioned previously: "one attack with the weapon used". It is very clear to me it is the weapon attack that deals damage, the cantrip is just aiding you to "hit better". As a DM I know there's always players who want to power game and they interpret the rules however they want to abuse them. Whenever you have a player like that you can either give them what they want and let them ruin the game, or kick them out of the table. I hope you are not that player in your table.

Now that the PHB I think it is pretty clear that Truestrike works with Agonizing Blast as it is the magic action, not the attack action that you use when casting it making it. It is a Cantrip you cast with the magic action and if you deal damage with it, you add your charisma.

Also there is no prohibition against Divination spells dealing damage. Mind Spike is a divination spell and that spell deals damage.

 

[Worrgrendel]

I'm a bit late to the discussion but I thought I'd chip in in case someone else reads it later: Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade are Evocation cantrips, which means they are causing the damage. True Strike is divination, which means it's giving you an insight, guiding your hand, just as it says in the description: "Guided by a flash of magical insight". It also says "If the attack deals damage", which is referring to the weapon attack mentioned previously: "one attack with the weapon used". It is very clear to me it is the weapon attack that deals damage, the cantrip is just aiding you to "hit better". As a DM I know there's always players who want to power game and they interpret the rules however they want to abuse them. Whenever you have a player like that you can either give them what they want and let them ruin the game, or kick them out of the table. I hope you are not that player in your table.

Calling this powergaming and booting a player from the table is going a bit too far here. Just do the math for the sake of it.
A level 3 Rogue/2 Warlock with True Strike and Agonizing Blast and a shortsword is doing 1d6 (shortsword) + 2d6 Sneak Attack + 1d6 (TS damage increase) + 3 (Cha from TS) + 3 (Cha from AB) = 20 average damage. 30 max damage.
A level 5 Rogue is doing 1d6 (shortsword) + 3d6 Sneak Attack + 4 (Dex + ASI in Dex) = 18 average damage. 28 max damage.
So the TS build is 2 damage ahead of a pure Rogue and is behind an ASI and has delayed Cunning Strike and Uncanny Dodge. A fair trade off.
Let’s look at a level 5 Warlock with Eldritch Blast. 2d10 (EB x 2) + 8 (Cha x 2 + ASI in Cha) = 19 average damage. 28 max damage. 1 average damage ahead with the “powergaming” TS + AB build. Again, behind on a ASI and 3rd level spells. Again, a fair trade.
Over the course of a combat the difference won’t even register as most kills don’t land exactly on that 1 or 2 extra damage delt to put a creature at exactly 0 HP and is overkill anyway.

 

[Horwath]

None of this works. First off, Pact of the Blade specifies “a simple or martial melee weapon,” so musket and bow are not valid options.

since every significant possible change to 5E24 was sacrificed on the altar of "muh compatibilitah!", I would say that improved pact weapon invocation(Xanatar) is still a legal choice so while it not state a musket but states bows and crossbows, musket would not be a stretch to give it to the invocation, heavy crossbow is still better than a musket.

Second, Agonizing Blast affects “a cantrip that deals damage,” and True Strike doesn’t really deal damage, it causes you to make an attack with a weapon, using your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage roll with the weapon. But it’s the weapon, not the cantrip, that’s dealing damage.

you are dealing damage because cantrip allowed you to deal damage in the way, but still, unless you are hell bent of making only one attack per Attack action your whole career, extra attack invocations are better than true strike.

As for the interaction between Pact of the Blade and Weapon Mastery, I believe you have to choose a weapon type you have proficiency with for the Weapon Mastery feature. Pact of the Blade doesn’t give you proficiency with the type of weapon generally, it’s just with the specific weapon you form the bond with.

Actually it does give you proficiency, you just need to finish a Long rest without being more than 5ft away from your pact weapon so you can take weapon mastery for it.