D&D (2024) Rogue Weapon mastery and Pact weapons

[TaranTheWanderer]

I see the argument that true strike is the same as Shillelagh. But looking at it, The only reason True Strike is not the same as Shillelagh is, once you cast the Shillelagh, the weapon is doing the damage and you can take multiple attacks. The spell truly modifies the damage and attacks are divorced from the act of spellcasting.

If true strike were doing the same thing, you’d be able to also take multiple attacks with the weapon true strike is modifying. You cannot. You can only attack once because it’s 1 action magic action. So, I feel you’re just casting a spell.

Not sure how that interacts with anything in the discussion since I didn’t think you could sneak attack with spells.

Edit: this is just one constant issue with 5e in general where the fluff of spells has almost nothing to do with the actual mechanics of the spell. Like….why does true strike let you do radiant damage??

 

[Staffan]

I would not allow the combination.

Sneak Attack works with Finesse or Ranged weapons. Agonizing Blast works with cantrips that deal damage. I think it's pretty clear that they are meant to be separate, so if true strike makes it count as a spell for Agonizing Blast, it also counts as a spell for Sneak Attack.

 

[ECMO3]

I would not allow the combination.

Sneak Attack works with Finesse or Ranged weapons. Agonizing Blast works with cantrips that deal damage. I think it's pretty clear that they are meant to be separate, so if true strike makes it count as a spell for Agonizing Blast, it also counts as a spell for Sneak Attack.

It is clearly a spell attack for sneak attack, but that works. In the 2024 rules sneak attack does not require a weapon attack. It only needs to be an "attack roll" which uses a "finesse or ranged weapon"

Here is the wording:
"You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack roll if you have Advantage on the roll and the attack uses a Finesse or a Ranged weapon. The extra damage’s type is the same as the weapon’s type."

I think it is intentionally worded this way so it does work on spell attacks.

 

[Horwath]

It is clearly a spell attack for sneak attack, but that works. In the 2024 rules sneak attack does not require a weapon attack. It only needs to be an "attack roll" which uses a "finesse or ranged weapon"

Here is the wording:
"You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack roll if you have Advantage on the roll and the attack uses a Finesse or a Ranged weapon. The extra damage’s type is the same as the weapon’s type."

I think it is intentionally worded this way so it does work on spell attacks.

this is true, it's also stupid to limit sneak attack like this. One of the bad legacies of 4E in 5E with limitation of many rogue "powers" to Light blades and hand crossbows.

it should be similar to 3,5e;

if it's an attack roll and it deals damage deal +Xd6 extra damage of the same type that is base attack if conditions trigger it.
No matter if it is a dagger, bow, greatsword, Fireblast or scorching ray.

 

[ECMO3]

Calling this powergaming and booting a player from the table is going a bit too far here. Just do the math for the sake of it.

When it comes to combat "Rogue" and "powergaming" should never be mentioned in the same sentence.

While you can do some neat and thematically cool things with a Rogue, especially with a multiclass, every Rogue level you take is a level you could have taken in a more powerful class.

 

[Zardnaar]

this is true, it's also stupid to limit sneak attack like this. One of the bad legacies of 4E in 5E with limitation of many rogue "powers" to Light blades and hand crossbows.

it should be similar to 3,5e;

if it's an attack roll and it deals damage deal +Xd6 extra damage of the same type that is base attack if conditions trigger it.
No matter if it is a dagger, bow, greatsword, Fireblast or scorching ray.

Think they are scared of a relationship of 3.5 where you could speak attack per attack iirc. Even with spells.

Scorching ray and Eldritch blast come to mind here. 5E limits it to weapons tor a reason.

 

[Horwath]

Think they are scared of a relationship of 3.5 where you could speak attack per attack iirc. Even with spells.

Scorching ray and Eldritch blast cone to mind here. 5E limits it to weapons tor a reason.

The once per turn is limit enough, does not matter if you have 1 or 10 attacks, you only get once extra damage(but the chance to get it is OFC improved with more attacks).

 

[Staffan]

The game expects characters to output a certain amount of damage per round without expending resources (lower for casters than for martials). Different classes have different mechanics for getting to that level of damage. Most martial characters do so via multiple attacks and various bonus damage abilities. Rogues do it via sneak attack. Casters do it via cantrips. Allowing the combination of cantrips and sneak attack seems like it would be excessive.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

At this point I am no longer proficient in Musket, but still have the mastery?

Probably no. But you also can't replqce it immediately.

 

[Zardnaar]

The game expects characters to output a certain amount of damage per round without expending resources (lower for casters than for martials). Different classes have different mechanics for getting to that level of damage. Most martial characters do so via multiple attacks and various bonus damage abilities. Rogues do it via sneak attack. Casters do it via cantrips. Allowing the combination of cantrips and sneak attack seems like it would be excessive.

Sneak attack and cantrips basically don't do enough damage.
There's a reason why rogues are regarded as weak.

Personally I'm leaning towards casters attempting to deal damage for the most part is a waste of time. Casting a fireball for example most of the time is a waste of a 3rd level slot and you may as well hold up a sign saying idiot.

I've had my suspicions for a while but new MM more or less confirmed that theory. There's niche scenarios where it's a good idea.