D&D 5E Rogues are Awesome. Is it the Tasha's Effect?

[jayoungr]

They're quite handy in non-combat situations, do they need to be better than most at combat as well?

Not saying they are or need to be better at combat, just that I hadn't noticed the phenomenon the OP was describing.

 

[Oofta]

Not saying they are or need to be better at combat, just that I hadn't noticed the phenomenon the OP was describing.

Fair enough. Same here. Rogues in games I've been involved with contribute just as much if not more to combat. Lots of things can change that of course such as how many rests you get between combat, nature of enemies and DM rulings.

 

[Blue]

Rogues are average damage. Green Flame Blade/booming blade drag it up a bit.

Or drag it down a lot.

Yes, they apply extra damage on a hit. But they are not an Attack action so they do not enable TWF. So if you miss, you don't have a second chance to apply Sneak Attack. (If you hit, use your Bonus Action some other way.)

TWF also allows a Swashbuckler to apply Fancy Footwork to a second target, with GFB/BB wouldn't.

 

[Charlaquin]

Or drag it down a lot.

Yes, they apply extra damage on a hit. But they are not an Attack action so they do not enable TWF. So if you miss, you don't have a second chance to apply Sneak Attack. (If you hit, use your Bonus Action some other way.)

TWF also allows a Swashbuckler to apply Fancy Footwork to a second target, with GFB/BB wouldn't.

The Bonus Action is the rogue’s primary resource. Some classes are short rest based, some classes are long rest based, but rogues are bonus action based. What GFB and BB do for a rogue is gives them another way to increase their damage on turns where they want to use their bonus action on something other than a TWF attack.

 

[Zardnaar]

Or drag it down a lot.

Yes, they apply extra damage on a hit. But they are not an Attack action so they do not enable TWF. So if you miss, you don't have a second chance to apply Sneak Attack. (If you hit, use your Bonus Action some other way.)

TWF also allows a Swashbuckler to apply Fancy Footwork to a second target, with GFB/BB wouldn't.

I was talking about the post Tasha's rogue that uses the aim ability. Pre Tasha's the dual wield one with optional fighter dip was the best way to go for damage (mastermind an exception).

 

[Flamestrike]

I was talking about the post Tasha's rogue that uses the aim ability. Pre Tasha's the dual wield one with optional fighter dip was the best way to go for damage (mastermind an exception).

TWF is still optimal over Aim (presuming another way to attain SA) from a raw DPR perspective.

Advantage is two rolls to hit, and both could hit but you only get SA+Weapon

Two attacks is just as likely to hit as one attack with Advantage, but also has the possibility of both weapons hitting (for extra weapon damage).

GFB/ BB picks up the slack with Aim, however again, it uses movement and your bonus action (and not many Rogues want to just sit there in melee getting wailed on, uncanny dodge or no, generally tending to 'yo-yo' in and out letting the Fighter cop the attacks).

 

[Blue]

The Bonus Action is the rogue’s primary resource. Some classes are short rest based, some classes are long rest based, but rogues are bonus action based. What GFB and BB do for a rogue is gives them another way to increase their damage on turns where they want to use their bonus action on something other than a TWF attack.

The comment was made in context of GFB/BB raising average damage, so please only evaluate my comment in terms of the context of damage. I completely agree you that rogue has lots of other uses for Bonus Action.

TWF for a rogue is only worth it as a method to apply Sneak Attack if you miss. However, you must make the decision to take GWF/BB - which will lock out TWF - before you know if you missed. So in terms of damage, GWF/BB can lower he expected damage. It's very much dependant on the chance for a hit if it's better to have a second chance to apply sneak attack or to increase damage on a hit by the cantrip.

Though he has since clarified it was post-Tasha's. Where you are dedicating your bonus action to Steady Aim and the to-hit chance is the same as two attacks. In that case it's higher average damage, though it does mean you definitely can't use your Bonus action for something else, so it has other impacts on the rogue as you mention.

 

[Zardnaar]

TWF is still optimal over Aim (presuming another way to attain SA) from a raw DPR perspective.

Advantage is two rolls to hit, and both could hit but you only get SA+Weapon

Two attacks is just as likely to hit as one attack with Advantage, but also has the possibility of both weapons hitting (for extra weapon damage).

GFB/ BB picks up the slack with Aim, however again, it uses movement and your bonus action (and not many Rogues want to just sit there in melee getting wailed on, uncanny dodge or no, generally tending to 'yo-yo' in and out letting the Fighter cop the attacks).

It buffs the rogue Archer and ones using gfb a lot as I previously stated. You're preaching to the choir in dual wielding rogue.

 

[Rockyroad]

I'm playing an Inquisitive rogue right now, and I thought that Insightful Fighting was a good ability, but now that we use Steady Aim from Tasha's I hardly ever use Insightful Fighting. And that's pretty much the main selling point for Inquisitives so Tasha's has basically made it seem like I'm playing a subclassless rogue.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm playing an Inquisitive rogue right now, and I thought that Insightful Fighting was a good ability, but now that we use Steady Aim from Tasha's I hardly ever use Insightful Fighting. And that's pretty much the main selling point for Inquisitives so Tasha's has basically made it seem like I'm playing a subclassless rogue.

Insightful fighting is a single bonus action, and it triggers sneak attack against that creature for a whole minute (10 rounds).

I'd be inclined to use IF till it stuck, and then move to using other abilities.