Rogues rule! (warning, kinda long and kinda ranting)

[fett527]

The only problem I have with the rogue is sneak attack. The class in general is fine, I just find that, unlike previous editions,the 3e rogue gets sneak attack damage WAY too often. It perhaps wouldn't be so bad if it was limited just to the rogue and assassin classes. But every other prestige class has sneak attack as a feature. Rogues generally dish out more damage than any other character class, especially when you combine it with crap like the OBI or deepwood sniper classes.

And flanking? That is NOT a sneak attack.

I think the sneak attack is fine the way it is. The rogue should be a lightly armored small weapon wielding combatant. The rogue would have average strength, meaning no bonus to damage. The only way a rogue is effective in dealing damage is by catching an opponent off-guard or having them flanked. If he tries to go in on-on-one combat he's toast. In our current game, 7th level now, I could count the number of times I have been able to get a sneak attack outside of flank on one hand. It is very difficult for those situations to come up. If the rogue could not sneak attack with flank then it would be an almost useless ability IMO.

 

[Voneth]

Yeah, Rogues are my favorite, except for the metagaming that goes on, which is mostly an excuse by other players to at least give the Rogue player a hard time, if not an out and out excuse to put him at the bottom of the pecking order. Even back in 1e, my Rogues were more Robin Hood and professional adventurer than kleptomanic, hell I can't remember when I picked a pocket last time.

In my current game, I am a ambassador and a squire of the realm, and I still get razzed by the other players for being "untrustworthy." The excuse is that this time they are all playing religious zealouts and devout people. In fact, I am the only PC in the party who even drinks wine at the Inn. I do have the deepest pockets in the group, but that is because I took a feat called "Gentry" (thanks to Paradaigm's Concepts) that gives you a ton of starting gold and makes you gentry.

The worst moment was when I was trying to be a diplomat and talk some foreign officals, when they asked my name, another player chipped in with "Don't you know the great Garious? Watch your pockets, he's know for his shifty ways." That got the PC and me upset. The officals were actualy new PCs and their players still go on and on.

The best moment was when I finaly let people know that I had Craft poison. The Lawful Jerk paladin was pushing his weight around and finaly said, "look you are going to see things my way. I have a sword." I reponded with ...

"You have to eat or drink sometime."

 

[Destil]

Ok, I just want to get an idea of how all you gamers and DM's out there feel about the Rogue class. To me, they're my absolute favorite class to play. They know how to do all kinds of things, and they do them well and with style. Plus, I can't think of any other class that has in it the potential for character diversification (other than the Fighter). You can have the classic thief character, a good hearted professional adventurer, a diplomat, the list goes on and on. They can be of any alignment, and no two are alike...aside from the sneak attack ability and other class abilities.

You've basicly summed up my opinion of the class to the letter (though the psion, with psionic feats and a limited known powers is my choice for the only class with more options).

I have no idea what everyone else in your group is thinking (though one thing I do like about Rogue is they multiclass well).

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I guess I'm an old fart who thinks a sneak attack should actually be done by "sneaking." Hiding in the bushes/shadows/corner and darting out to take someone unawares.

 

[Wormwood]

I guess I'm an old fart who thinks a sneak attack should actually be done by "sneaking." Hiding in the bushes/shadows/corner and darting out to take someone unawares.

You can still do that.

Now you also have the option of sticking a knife in someone's kidneys when they're distracted by your buddy.

 

[Thresher]

Or shooting them in the arse when theyre under 30 feet away

Rogues are pretty easy to rein in if they start whoring it over your bad-guy NPC's, just throw in some monsters that dont care if you critical hit them and it should drag the combat out a lot. Or later on have some of the more important ones wearing armour with the Fortification in it.

I loved playing a rogue, they are such a vast improvement over the 2E version.

Plus! You get skillz out the wazoo!!!

 

[L0rd_Dark0n]

Thanks everyone for the awesome replies. Now that I know that I'm not the only player who enjoys the Rogue class, what I'd like to know is, why all the anti-Rogue feelings out there? Does this hail back to 2E days where the class was actually "Thief"? My Rogues also get hammered because they're "weak" when it comes to fighting. Because they don't fight as well as a Fighter...except when the sneak attacks come into play. It was a BEAUTIFULL scene when in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil when the evil cleric casts Protection from Good, just before the Neutral aligned Rogues gleefully (because the party cleric identified the spell) tumbled into combat flanking the cleric. Can you say, insert blade and set to blend? He was done by the beginning of the second round. Two Rogues in one group, that was pretty sweet. So when a Rogue DOES well in combat, I get that same old chorus of "The Rogue class is too powerful" blah blah blah. Too many skill points? Look at all the extra things they could do in 1E and 2E. Those Thief skills just translated over to regular skills in a fair manner I thought. Fight poorly, the Rogue is a weakling and wasting air, fight well, and the Rogue is too powerful and should be put down.

 

[Steverooo]

I kinda like SOME Rogues!

I recall a scene in a 2300AD game, where a Space Pirate picked the pocket of a guy I was talking to, stole his wallet, and put it in his own back pocket. My character, standing right behind him, then picked it from his, checked the ID, and asked the NPC if this was his wallet... The NPC acted all shocked, and my PC handed it back, telling him he should be more careful with it, as the Space Pirate fumed.

The interview continued for a while, and then my PC left to go do something else. Thereupon, the old Space Pirate picked the NPC's pocket, yet again, and stole the wallet for the third time, glaring down the hall at my departed PC.

Hey, I TOLD the guy he should be more careful with that thing!

So why doesn't the party trust Rogues? Because they can Spot and Overhear, Pick Pockets and Locks, cut purses, steal, plant items... ad nauseum!

How do you get around it? Tell them you don't steal, have no Ranks in Pick Pockets, and play a good alignment. Take other useful skills, like Disable Device and Search, instead.

Or, you can do what I do, and play a Ranger/Rogue, and tell the party you're a Ranger. I take Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot, with only a single Rank of most other Exclusive Skills. Thus, I am very Rangery, but have a very small amount of extra damage from a Sneak Attack, and a few "extra" skills which can come in handy...

In the current group, for instance, we got surprised by a fireball, followed by charging Lizardmen and a Troll Adept. I spotted the Troll, warned the party that he had a rod (a Troll-sized Wand, actually), and then hit him with Alchemist's Fire before he could do anything else. I then took cover, hid, and sneaked in for an acid attack while another couple of PCs kept him busy.

After the Troll almost finished one and went down, though, both of them ran away! So there I was, making sure the Troll stayed dead (Regeneration) all by my lonesome! Anyway, I did, and searched the body...

I found some sealed flasks (which I figured out were Alchemist's Fire), and leather bag of liquid (Tanglefoot Bag), the "rod" burned on one end (Wand of Fireballs), a silver dagger, fancy shortbow, and silver bracers. I gathered this stuff up (putting the bow in my Quiver of Ehlonna, and the other stuff in Heward's Handy Haversack - both extra-dimensional spaces, mind you), then went to finish off the Liz, and help collect the rest of the treasue...

Someone else had gathered most of it, and it was all pretty normal. 110 GP, four gems, and weapons, armor, and shields. Only one shortsword, and the Troll's shortbow were masterwork.

So my PC asks if anyone can use the wand, and the only character we'd seen cast spells in the group (a Dwarf, class(es) unknown) said "maybe". I asked the Halfling Rogue if he can Use Magic Devices, and he says "no", so I say I might be able to (1 Rank Use Magic Device), so I'll keep it, for now. Then I try on the Troll-sized bracers, and find that they shrink to fit, and don't increase my bow use, so I ask if they remove (they do), and then ask the GM about a possible way to determine how good they are... I reveal ALL OF THIS to the party, except the method.

(We worked out that I would take a stick, and beat on my armor lightly, then harder and harder, until it started to hurt... Once it did, I would remove it, put on the bracers, and repeat the process. This wouldn't have revealed the AC, but would let me figure out whether the bracers were better, worse, or the same as my armour's AC.)

So then, I suggest dicing for the magic items, rather than arguing over them... First determine who can use what, then who wants what, then roll dice for'em, with anyone without a permanent magic item getting a +1 on their roll, highest roll wins...

The Fighter (covetting the bracers, which he didn't know about until I revealed their existance, and their magical nature to the group) objects. He says someone getting the wand (not permanent) and the bracers "while someone else gets nothing" is unfair. The Dwarf, for unstated reasons, also disagrees. Then the Paladin, too...

Meanwhile, the Half-Orc "Mercenary" (who is really an evil priest), ignoring my call for anyone with Detect Magic, tries to "secretly" cast it, and not share the info with anyone else! Of course, the PHB clearly states that all Verbal Components must be pronounced in a "strong voice" (and the DC for overhearing normal conversation is zero), so a listen check tells me he's casting, so the GM tells me he has cast a spell, but that I don't know what... My character also has one Cross-Class Rank in Spellcraft, though, and DC:15+0 isn't too hard to make, so I ID the spell.

Well, the GM admits he messed up, twice. The Half-Orc tries to take the bow from "the pile of treasure", even though it was in my quiver, but I point that fact out to him. Even so, the GM lets him detect it as magic, even though it is technically on another plane(let). So, he knows that the Bow, Bracers, and Wand are magical, while all my PC knows is that the the Wand probably is, the bracers are, and the bow is masterwork...

Well, seeing how things are going, my PC has already scooped up the gold and gems, saying "We can all agree to trust the Paladin, can't we?", and giving it all to him. He then helps the Fighter roll over a gigantic corpse, and get its armor and pack off. There, we find a masterwork shortsword, three dead bodies, and two more gems.

So, since some of the coins are there, my PC again scoops them, and the gems up, and passes the coins to the Paladin. As he does so, however, seeing how things are going to be, he palms the two gems. He helps the Paladin store the coins, and puts the shortsword (along with the gems) into his Haversack.

On the ride back, the evil Half-Orc priest asks "Can I see that shortbow you got off the Troll?" My PC looks at him and says "You mean the magical one, that you weren't going to tell us about?" He then tosses it to him, the bracers to the Fighter, the Wand to the Dwarf, and asks the Halfling Rogue if he wants the shortsword (he says no, he already has one).

So... I figure my PC will get rooked on the magic items, and probably get noting but a few GP, and maybe stuck with the wand that the Dwarf tried, and can't use...

From now on, though, what he finds he'll be keeping to himself, just like all the others... and those two gems are worth more than the gold the party found.

Of course, if they decide that they want to work out an equitable split, I'm sure the "lost" gems can be found by a thorough Search... and Rangers have that skill, right? Of course, with this grabby party, I don't think it'll come up! Even the Paladin was grabbing stuff!

 

[Witch Doctor]

The rogue hatred is just skill-envy. Paladins with their 2, maybe 3 skill points / level turn a deep shade of green when they see the rogue with 8, 9, or even 10 skill points / level.

Also, the fact that a lettle multi-classing can turn any rogue in the phantom that strikes with no warning (aka Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability.

Combine this all with a high-Dex character (easier to dodge touch attacks and incorporeal undead), and you have one very dynamic character base. Skill diversity alone gives more flavor then paladins, IMHO, but that's another thread entirely.

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

He heh. I haven't seen Reapersaurus around much recently... I'm sure he would be happy to argue the other side.

His argument is that Rogues are overpowered because they are so good both outside of combat (scouting, traps, locks, diplomacy, etc.) and in combat as well with sneak attacks.