Roguish Killer

[Kzach]

Am I reading this feat correctly?

You don't actually use up your Sneak Attack usage per turn, or in the case of a multi-class, per encounter? You just have to have the Sneak Attack ability, right?

So as an Assassin multi-classed into Rogue, if I had 2 shrouds up on a target and invoked those shrouds and then missed, the target would take 3d6 damage (1d6 from second shroud and 2d6 from rogue Sneak Attack)?

That... can't be right... can it?

 

[Larrin]

The feat says nothing about changing how often you can use sneak attack, thus it has no impact on that. It only changes how you can invoke it (ie you normally have to hit). If it changed how often you could use it, it would say "even if you've already used it this round" or some similar statement.

So as an Assassin multi-classed into Rogue, if I had 2 shrouds up on a target and invoked those shrouds and then missed, the target would take 3d6 damage (1d6 from second shroud and 2d6 from rogue Sneak Attack)?

That... can't be right... can it?

this is correct, but only happens once per encounter, so not a problem

 

[Kzach]

this is correct, but only happens once per encounter, so not a problem

What do you mean it only happens once per encounter? You just said it doesn't affect how often you can use your sneak attack.

Nothing in the feat says it 'uses up' your once per encounter sneak attack from Sneak of Shadows. Which is the point I'm trying to clarify here.

Every time the assassin has combat advantage and invokes at least 2 shrouds on a target and misses, he'll still be doing 3d6 damage to the target. Whether that happens once, twice, or a dozen times in a combat.

 

[Fanaelialae]

No, Larrin has the right idea.

Roguish Killer allows you to apply your sneak attack bonus even if you miss provided that you have both combat advantage and at least two shrouds on the target.

It doesn't, however, circumvent any limits on sneak attack such as:

If you have dealt Sneak Attack damage since the start of your turn, you cannot deal it again until the start of your next turn.

Similarly, other limitations such as the rogue multiclass feat's once per encounter sneak attack, still apply.

 

[Kzach]

Similarly, other limitations such as the rogue multiclass feat's once per encounter sneak attack, still apply.

Why?

It says nothing of this in the feat's description whereas in other feats that involve sneak attack limitations, it does.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Why?

It says nothing of this in the feat's description whereas in other feats that involve sneak attack limitations, it does.

That is true but there are items (e.g. wraith blade) that specifically state that they circumvent the usual limitation on the frequency of usage of sneak attack (SA).

Let's look at it like this:
1) Specific beats general: doesn't apply, nowhere is stated that you can use SA more than 1/round.
2) The feat works if the normal limitation on frequency of usage is applied.
Therefore, there is no reason to conclude that this feat enables you to apply SA more than 1/round.

Another question is would it be broken to allow the feat to work like you want it to work?
-- I'm not very familiar with assassins so I don't answer this question.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Specific beats general--but the specific has to specifically say it changes the general rule.

It doesn't matter if the feat fails to say it "uses up" sneak attack. If it doesn't say that it doesn't, all normal restrictions apply.

 

[Kzach]

Specific beats general--but the specific has to specifically say it changes the general rule.

It doesn't matter if the feat fails to say it "uses up" sneak attack. If it doesn't say that it doesn't, all normal restrictions apply.

That's taking too many assumptions too far.

If I've used the Sneak of Shadows 1/encounter sneak attack during an encounter, all things that qualify the character for the Roguish Killer feat still apply. The character still has the sneak attack feature, irrespective of whether he's used it or not that encounter. So why wouldn't it work after he's used it?

In retrospect I don't even think it's that good. At first I was "OMG! That's amazing!" but when you start to crunch some math on it, it's actually pretty mediocre, and that's assuming it would work for EVERY missed attack.

Consider that you have to invoke 2 shrouds as a minimum. Over a 10 round combat, that's 5 times you're going to invoke. Out of those 5 times, how many times would a decently built assassin actually miss? Without doing the proper numbers, my gut says he'd only miss 1 out of those 5 times. So... an extra 2d6 damage once per encounter (assuming it works even if you've already used sneak attack), really isn't that special.

A player would be better off taking a +1 damage feat.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

That's taking too many assumptions too far.

If I've used the Sneak of Shadows 1/encounter sneak attack during an encounter, all things that qualify the character for the Roguish Killer feat still apply. The character still has the sneak attack feature, irrespective of whether he's used it or not that encounter. So why wouldn't it work after he's used it?

There are no assumptions made he just read it by RAW. SA has a restriction by RAW. The feat does not say it lifts that restriction. So by RAW the restriction still applies.

Yes, indeed, you still have the feature - you just can't use it anymore b/c you have a usage restriction as well and that still applies.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

In retrospect I don't even think it's that good. At first I was "OMG! That's amazing!" but when you start to crunch some math on it, it's actually pretty mediocre, and that's assuming it would work for EVERY missed attack.

Consider that you have to invoke 2 shrouds as a minimum. Over a 10 round combat, that's 5 times you're going to invoke. Out of those 5 times, how many times would a decently built assassin actually miss? Without doing the proper numbers, my gut says he'd only miss 1 out of those 5 times. So... an extra 2d6 damage once per encounter (assuming it works even if you've already used sneak attack), really isn't that special.

A player would be better off taking a +1 damage feat.

That might be true but that doesn't change RAW.

And by epic it would be 5d6 extra damage (5d8 with a feat) on a miss. But I don't care about the numbers.

This is a rules question not a math question.